For T1 there's penals
penals are an earlygame damage dealer but cease to become a damage dealer the moment OKW/OST gets their weapon upgrades
Posts: 1979
For T1 there's penals
Posts: 281
uhh when the entire midgame of a faction relies on a doctrine you know the faction is badly designed... stock SOV is not as competitive as any of the stock options that other factions get simply because it will be deleted in the midgame
but the soviet early-midgame is weak... the reason why sov can punish OKW is because of the M3 and how T1 can absolutely body OKW... and even without ostruppen the moment grenadiers have a weapon upgrade conscripts start having and youre gonna have to fight tooth and nail till you get the T-70
Posts: 1979
All youre saying is that soviet early-mid game is weak cause its weak, id like to hear an argument why. You dont need a doc to compete, i dont understand why you say that. soviet stock army can deal with everything except ostruppen.
Yes soviet early-mid game isnt op imo, but far from weak.
You dont need an m3 against okw, double flamer and con spam is enough
Posts: 281
i already said it... the moment volks/grens get weapon upgrades conscripts are gonna be fighting tooth and nail to survive... unupgraded conscripts cannot compete against LMG grenadiers or STG volks and the icing on the cake is that your MG is outright worse than both OKW and OST MGs....
and before you say flamer imma say now that ost gets a flamer aswell while OKW has the infantry to wreck conscripts with ease
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i already said it... the moment volks/grens get weapon upgrades conscripts are gonna be fighting tooth and nail to survive... unupgraded conscripts cannot compete against LMG grenadiers or STG volks and the icing on the cake is that your MG is outright worse than both OKW and OST MGs....
and before you say flamer imma say now that ost gets a flamer aswell while OKW can just blob you to death... and before you say maxim ill say MG34 (which is better than the maxim)... and the flamer will not compensate for the fact that your mainline infantry and your machinegun is worse than theirs
Posts: 1979
flamer against soviet is suicide, have fun losing half of your men to mines and trip wires everytime you cap.
and weapon upgrades dont help you push cons behind sandbags,
kill a t70
or sweep mines.
your inf is slightly stronger, not dominating
id take a mobile 6man maxim over mg34 any day, specially when you can keep it on the field with merge.
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snip
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ostruppen are simply OP, i dont think anyone would argue about that and specially soviets suffer against them, that doesnt make the soviet early-mid game weak.
Posts: 281
I disagree. I think putting timestamps will make it more clear as to what people might consider early/mid game stages.
0: Opening with anything other than Conscripts is slow. T2 is not realistically and T1 goes high risk mid reward with clowncar. Only viable against OKW.
3.30: 60 muni upgrades hit around this mark same with 1 CP.
4.30/5.00: 2nd set of 60 muni and 2 CP. With the usual 3 Con + 2 CE or 4 Con build here the main weakness are remarked.
At this point you juggle between getting AT grenades, molotovs (noob trap), medics, T2 and what unit do you want as 5th.
Depending on bleed, it's most likely gonna be an AT gun cause the FHT or Flak HT is hitting at 6 mins. +1 min the P2.
Same with muni expenditure. You can't have everything. U need some spare muni for AT nade. Sparingly or don't use oorah. If you go for SVT you won't have mines unless you decide to skip flamer or viceversa. Things get worst if you get Guards or went T1 Penals for PTRS.
From this point onward is all about surviving playing defensively with 25% to 40% of map control which means less resources. Soviets play expecting an Axis mistakes leading to wipes (generally MG) or destruction of light vehicles which will give them room to tech T3 for a T70 at around 9 min or more. Alternative they bunker down even more, get way more units with 2x AT gun till they manage to set up T4.
So the mid game is not necessarily weak by the units/tech but due to how they generally enter it.
Posts: 1979
basically everything you say is very exaggerated.
weapon upgrades > mines is just wrong
an lmg-gren that hit a mine wont beat a con, same with stg volks. Mine spam is probably the strongest aspect of soviet play, dunno why you are trying to tell me its not. It legit destroys you when you dont sweep and not a single other faction can match soviets in their ability to spam them.
in the okw vs sov matchup, soviet mines cost the same and are stronger. Volks lose more dps per mine than cons, are more expensive to reinforce and are more spammable with double engies.
okw cant afford to spam mines, your sturm pios has to sweep and fight and you need the munis for stgs, flame nades and med crates.
in the ost vs soviet matchup, soviet mines bleed and force retreat on evey hit while s-mines can be avoided by reading signs. dunno how you can argue that ost mines are better when you can trade 10 muni for 30mp with one trip wire
Teller mines are gold, i agree on that
"it also means sacrificing much of the map in a defensively styled play while having 0 offensive potential at all..." simply not true, push off a squad and plant a mine, hows that defensive?
upgraded volks and lmg grens dont dominate cons, they just dont. And when we are talking about pre-light vehicle phase, you cant expect to have upgrades on all your units
the maxim is not shit but i guess im kinda alone on that opinion, supression is fine
and iirc it packs up alot faster than the mg34/42 so it is more mobile
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not anymore... the 30% dps buff was removed
- Reload cover bonus from the Mobilize Reserves has been removed.
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penals are an earlygame damage dealer but cease to become a damage dealer the moment OKW/OST gets their weapon upgrades
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im not entirely sure if we are talking about the ostruppen matchup or not :/ if so, you are right, otherwise:
3:30 for you first flamer is insanly late
4:30/5:00 except for the ostruppen matchup, soviets have more squads on the field than any other faction
i dont see the weakness
when okw goes for flak at 6min they only have 3 volks, soviets should have better map control by then.
spamming oorah is a noob trap, just dont do it.
You are right, during teching soviets are vulnerable but i dont get where "From this point onward is all about surviving playing defensively with 25% to 40% of map control" is coming from?
that happens against ostruppen, maybe assault grens on some maps and nothing else unless you get outplayed
skipping flamer when you go for svt cons is another trap imo
Posts: 281
The most notorious effect is in the T1 skip from OH, not with OKW. Still the causes are the same.
1- You should check timing of first flamer (60 muni and the time for the upgrade to kick). That's pretty much standard time and it hasn't changed in years. Around 3:00 u get 60 muni. Micro + been on territory + upgrade pushes it to 3:30. I can paste all games from last tournament and the timings are there.
2- Not really. SU gets 5 units transitioning to a 6th one. OKW gets 3 main lines + 1 SP + another Volk/MG/Kubel at that point.
OH match up with Osstruppen is not necessarily outnumbering on squads but they still trade much more effectively.
3- The playing from behind comes from the current OH meta mostly.
The OKW vs SU is balanced favouring SU IMO. Still you expect to lose territory when spending on tech at that timing, plus the faster LV OKW can get. The only thing is that it's not as drastic as OH and OKW is much harder to transition if they go mechanized.
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1. i checked some of my replays (mixed automatch and tourney) and the flamer timing was anything between 2:40 and 4:05, which doesnt say alot about the usual game obviously but you can get the flamer significantly faster than 3:30 when you rush munitions (which i usually do as soviets)
2. what i meant was that soviets reach their full t0 army with either 4cons+ce or 3cons+2ce earlier than any other army completes their t0/t1 army, combined with a flamer push soviets should get good portion of the map and harras their opponents income. excluding very aggresive early game play like 221/ostruppen
3. nothing to add, youre basically right. of course soviets plays from behind against ostruppen but i wouldnt set that sitiation as their normal early game situation, even tho ostruppen is played a ton
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Posts: 1979
It's mind boggling to me how Soviets have gotten a free pass to have blatantly OP units/abilities over the years while all other factions have swung wildly between UP and OP.
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