The problem on example jackson is: this thing counter every vehicle. even a full speed kubel.
it is so fast, high speed turret, high accu, good reload, high penetration.
this is how it should be:
all faction get anti-medium- tds and anti-heavy-tds.
anti heavy tds have less accu vs mediums or smaller targets. so a kubel will only get hit by luck.
for this targets you have handheld AT, medium-td, AT guns and mediums.
for heavy targets you have your jackson, SU85, firefly, panther etc
possibilty to push back the late game td's
17 Aug 2020, 07:56 AM
#41
Posts: 2243
17 Aug 2020, 10:03 AM
#42
Posts: 1351
I still stand with what I wrote a couple of months back.
The way tank destroyers deal damage should be changed completely:
1. They should deal a fraction of vehicle heath's damage, not a fixed hp value. They should, for example, deal 25% damage to any vehicle. This will mean that they will kill every vehicle in 4 shots. It would be the same for medium and a heavy tanks (or even lights). By 25% I mean the hp value based on the full vehicle health, not what was left on the health bar (however, one could also experiment with this). If balance team decided that it would be better for them to deal, for example, 20% damage, it would mean that all vehicles will die to 5 shots.
2. Tank destroyers dealing damage this way would finally be balanced as they would never be a better answer to mediums than other medium tanks. Players would have to decide if they prefer an all rounder (AI capable as well) or a tank destroyer. In some scenarios it would be actually better to have a premium medium to deal with other mediums than a tank destroyer.
I hope what I wrote is clear enough
The way tank destroyers deal damage should be changed completely:
1. They should deal a fraction of vehicle heath's damage, not a fixed hp value. They should, for example, deal 25% damage to any vehicle. This will mean that they will kill every vehicle in 4 shots. It would be the same for medium and a heavy tanks (or even lights). By 25% I mean the hp value based on the full vehicle health, not what was left on the health bar (however, one could also experiment with this). If balance team decided that it would be better for them to deal, for example, 20% damage, it would mean that all vehicles will die to 5 shots.
2. Tank destroyers dealing damage this way would finally be balanced as they would never be a better answer to mediums than other medium tanks. Players would have to decide if they prefer an all rounder (AI capable as well) or a tank destroyer. In some scenarios it would be actually better to have a premium medium to deal with other mediums than a tank destroyer.
I hope what I wrote is clear enough
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17 Aug 2020, 10:44 AM
#43
Posts: 518
I still stand with what I wrote a couple of months back.
The way tank destroyers deal damage should be changed completely:
1. They should deal a fraction of vehicle heath's damage, not a fixed hp value. They should, for example, deal 25% damage to any vehicle. This will mean that they will kill every vehicle in 4 shots. It would be the same for medium and a heavy tanks (or even lights)
Ah yes. Goodbye heavy tanks and hello light vehicle spam
Why should I get a Tiger I or KT or Churchill when they die to 4 or 5 shots ? Better spam Pumas and Valentine + AECs since they also will survive 4 or 5 shots by TDs.
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
Playing with randoms
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you
I don't play this version of EZ mode very often because it's so boringly simple. But it is funny to see the Axis circle jerk with people complaining that the one faction with every crutch in the book is some how underpowered lol.
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
u deserve to lose if u don't have an Ele when there's an ISU.
Just stay out of topics u have no knowledge of, Latch.
Ranked, I only play USF. Wouldn't be caught dead playing Nazis with some sort of record being taken
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you, and wouldn't be surprised to be hit again, but I'm fed up with this bullshit and honestly, the sole fact that I'm not permad is what keeps me here having discussions about the game I like and yes, I do question myself why I still go back here to this free range insane asylum so often.
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you
17 Aug 2020, 11:59 AM
#44
Posts: 2243
I still stand with what I wrote a couple of months back.
The way tank destroyers deal damage should be changed completely:
1. They should deal a fraction of vehicle heath's damage, not a fixed hp value. They should, for example, deal 25% damage to any vehicle. This will mean that they will kill every vehicle in 4 shots. It would be the same for medium and a heavy tanks (or even lights). By 25% I mean the hp value based on the full vehicle health, not what was left on the health bar (however, one could also experiment with this). If balance team decided that it would be better for them to deal, for example, 20% damage, it would mean that all vehicles will die to 5 shots.
2. Tank destroyers dealing damage this way would finally be balanced as they would never be a better answer to mediums than other medium tanks. Players would have to decide if they prefer an all rounder (AI capable as well) or a tank destroyer. In some scenarios it would be actually better to have a premium medium to deal with other mediums than a tank destroyer.
I hope what I wrote is clear enough
a target table would be much more better.
17 Aug 2020, 12:10 PM
#45
Posts: 1351
a target table would be much more better.
Can U explain? Sounds interesting.
(09.10.2019): "You really are a jewel to this forum" - feels proud, thank You
(24.03.2020): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9PiqCeLEmM
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17 Aug 2020, 12:29 PM
#46
Posts: 1351
Ah yes. Goodbye heavy tanks and hello light vehicle spam
Why should I get a Tiger I or KT or Churchill when they die to 4 or 5 shots ? Better spam Pumas and Valentine + AECs since they also will survive 4 or 5 shots by TDs.
Not really.
Mediums would become a natural counter to tank destroyers (especially premium meds). They would trade more evenly plus medium would still engage infantry. This would lead to a lot of dilemmas and tactical choices by the player (now you can mindlessly just spam TDs, especially with USF). The heavies would be killed as quickly as they are now (maybe 25% is too much, but 20% might be a better idea). The lights would be better countered by meds than TDs. It would be a really very much like original paper/scissors/rock concept.
(09.10.2019): "You really are a jewel to this forum" - feels proud, thank You
(24.03.2020): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9PiqCeLEmM
(25.06.2020): http://www.companyofheroes.com/leaderboards#profile/steam/76561198035553470/standings
17 Aug 2020, 12:54 PM
#48
Posts: 518
Not really.
Mediums would become a natural counter to tank destroyers (especially premium meds).
So would LVs be. Two Pumas that can take 4 shots each from a TD would just simply stomp any TD. Even without HEAT shells
And on the other hand heavies would become literally useless. Got a Churchill croc ? 2 Stug IIIs and it is gone ( 2 Shots from each Stug )
The system would just be completely broken.
now you can mindlessly just spam TDs, especially with USF).
Yea ... no. If you only spam TDs , then the enemy will just roam freely with his Infantry
The heavies would be killed as quickly as they are now
No. They would be killed like 3 times as quickly
(maybe 25% is too much, but 20% might be a better idea).
Nice. Now you got a Puma that can take 5 shots from a Firefly.
The lights would be better countered by meds than TDs
Better , but not very well. Ever saw a Sherman / T 34 76 / Cromwell fight a Vet 1+ Puma with Heat shells ?
I hope you realize that this idea is very flawed. No offense, but it would basically screw the whole system.
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
Playing with randoms
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you
I don't play this version of EZ mode very often because it's so boringly simple. But it is funny to see the Axis circle jerk with people complaining that the one faction with every crutch in the book is some how underpowered lol.
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
u deserve to lose if u don't have an Ele when there's an ISU.
Just stay out of topics u have no knowledge of, Latch.
Ranked, I only play USF. Wouldn't be caught dead playing Nazis with some sort of record being taken
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you, and wouldn't be surprised to be hit again, but I'm fed up with this bullshit and honestly, the sole fact that I'm not permad is what keeps me here having discussions about the game I like and yes, I do question myself why I still go back here to this free range insane asylum so often.
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you
17 Aug 2020, 13:50 PM
#49
Posts: 2243
Can U explain? Sounds interesting.
there are even target tables in the game already. For example fire and flamer weapons make more dmg vs emplacements (i thing the nullify this already again) or the dmg from stuka vs houses and so on
17 Aug 2020, 14:50 PM
#50
Posts: 1351
So would LVs be. Two Pumas that can take 4 shots each from a TD would just simply stomp any TD. Even without HEAT shells
And on the other hand heavies would become literally useless. Got a Churchill croc ? 2 Stug IIIs and it is gone ( 2 Shots from each Stug )
The system would just be completely broken.
It would be broken this way, but if you balanced it, it wouldn't. Just like I wrote - it should be balanced and my idea is just a starting point. Puma (tbh I wouldn't treat it as a tank destroyer and leave its current stats - it is ok the way it is). Stug III, a better example, would probably be set to 6 shot everything (but that is another example where one could toy with the idea of leaving it as a unit with fixed damage or make it similar to TDs, I'd leave it as it is now probably). Jackson could become a 5 shooter, just like su85, stugIV or Firefly. Those are the primary culprits (60range) in the game which shut medium armour. The rest could be just left the way they are (like su76, another example). No need to put all TDs into the same basket, just the system of counting damage for some tank destroyers would be different and actually even easier to understand by new players once properly addressed in the unit desctiption. One could also think whether those super heavy TDs should also be treated this way (4 shoot everything?)
Yea ... no. If you only spam TDs , then the enemy will just roam freely with his Infantry
Not really. USF very often builds just Jacksons and shut off all armour. And then they invest in infantry or indirect weapons.
Using my idea Jacksons' performance wouldn't change against heavies but they would need the same number of shots to kill mediums - pretty gamechanging imo and in the way that many players want it. Those TDs would still have range advantage.
No. They would be killed like 3 times as quickly
If it gets balanced right around this idea, they won't.
Nice. Now you got a Puma that can take 5 shots from a Firefly.
No need to worry, explained above. Just let's just not put puma into TDs basket.
Better , but not very well. Ever saw a Sherman / T 34 76 / Cromwell fight a Vet 1+ Puma with Heat shells ?
I hope you realize that this idea is very flawed. No offense, but it would basically screw the whole system.
Explained above and hope it also clears such possible problems.
Edit: Of course all i wrote above is just a suggestion that can be worked on. Those 60 range TDs could kill all tanks with a bigger or smaller number of shots or there could be differences between them (one needs 5, another 6 shots, for example).
(09.10.2019): "You really are a jewel to this forum" - feels proud, thank You
(24.03.2020): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9PiqCeLEmM
(25.06.2020): http://www.companyofheroes.com/leaderboards#profile/steam/76561198035553470/standings
17 Aug 2020, 20:17 PM
#51
Posts: 359
Replying to Achpawel above.
USF does not have any late game armour option except Jackson. Unless they go doctrinal armour, most of which are not heavy and cannot compete with Axis heavies and the Panther.
I keep saying this but the problem is Allies generally have no options for heavy armour.
The only reason why Axis heavy armour sees nothing but Jacksons from USF is because they have no heavy armour. It would be cool to see USF heavy armour vs Axis heavy armour but the only option is jackson for USF To counter Axis heavy armour.
USF does not have any late game armour option except Jackson. Unless they go doctrinal armour, most of which are not heavy and cannot compete with Axis heavies and the Panther.
I keep saying this but the problem is Allies generally have no options for heavy armour.
The only reason why Axis heavy armour sees nothing but Jacksons from USF is because they have no heavy armour. It would be cool to see USF heavy armour vs Axis heavy armour but the only option is jackson for USF To counter Axis heavy armour.
17 Aug 2020, 21:02 PM
#52
Posts: 1515
Replying to Achpawel above.
USF does not have any late game armour option except Jackson. Unless they go doctrinal armour, most of which are not heavy and cannot compete with Axis heavies and the Panther.
I keep saying this but the problem is Allies generally have no options for heavy armour.
The only reason why Axis heavy armour seens nothing but Jacksons from USF is because they have no heavy armour. It would be cool to see heavy armour but the only option is heavy armour vs Jackson against USF.
Last sentance gave me a stroke. Do you even comma bro? Jacksons are the way they are because of Panthers and Axis heavies (+ KT stock). Teamgames are dominated by those tanks and as such Jackson is a reply. Same as SU85, except it trades movement and agility for possibility to self spot (albeit extremely situational and super narrow cone), better ROF and much lower target size (24 vs 18). Firefly on the other hand has greater damage (further amplified by veterancy) and 2 upgrades but much slower and lower ROF.
Axis on the other hand only has one non doctrinal 60 range TD. JP4 which outclasses all except Jackson, with it's high armour and low target size and great ROF (plus enough penetration to penetrate 100% all but the heaviest).
To fight the heaviest like IS-2, Panthers are there with 50 range, high HP and armour and good ROF combined with a lot of MGs (plus excellent penetration). You can go on with the differences and how those differences add up a faction but people will just call either ALLIES OP or AXIS OP, so in the end it doesn't matter.
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
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17 Aug 2020, 21:17 PM
#53
Posts: 1351
Replying to Achpawel above.
USF does not have any late game armour option except Jackson. Unless they go doctrinal armour, most of which are not heavy and cannot compete with Axis heavies and the Panther.
I keep saying this but the problem is Allies generally have no options for heavy armour.
The only reason why Axis heavy armour seens nothing but Jacksons from USF is because they have no heavy armour. It would be cool to see heavy armour but the only option is heavy armour vs Jackson against USF.
True - but I feel that the current problem is that mediums just make no sense completely. With this solution they would simply make more sense and it would not change the current TDs vs heavy tanks situation. They would still require the similar/same number of shots to destroy a heavy tank. They, however, would be less potent against mediums because they would require the same number of shots to destry a medium tank as well. They would be worse at dealing with light vehicles and mediums would be better here (however this could be coded so that a TD shooting at a light just deals 20% of their health damage but no less than X damage and this way TDs would kill lights in a similar way to a medium tank).
(09.10.2019): "You really are a jewel to this forum" - feels proud, thank You
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18 Aug 2020, 07:57 AM
#54
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
tds should simply not have that high chance to damage (hit and penetrate) meduims at range 60
18 Aug 2020, 08:09 AM
#55
Posts: 1289
tds should simply not have that high chance to damage (hit and penetrate) meduims at range 60
The pen cant go down to much if at all imo. Cuz of the obvivous armour/health pool advantidge axis stock late game has. The only real way to do this imo is via target size in combination with accuracy.
18 Aug 2020, 09:37 AM
#56
Posts: 2243
tds should simply not have that high chance to damage (hit and penetrate) meduims at range 60
it should be nearly impossible to hit a full speed kubel for a TD or AT gun. period.
18 Aug 2020, 09:46 AM
#57
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
The pen cant go down to much if at all imo. Cuz of the obvivous armour/health pool advantidge axis stock late game has. The only real way to do this imo is via target size in combination with accuracy.
Yes the far accuracy could go down.
Penetration could also go down either the base stat or the vet bonuses. Vetted SU-85 and and M36 have ridiculous high penetration, in the case of M36 that makes AP rounds almost pointless.
One could even make 2 separate types of round for heavy Tds similar to the 76mm Sherman one normal AP rounds to be used vs medium vehicles and one high AP rounds specially designed vs Super heavies adjusting ROF, damage, accuracy,... accordingly and thus separating the balancing between mediums tanks and Super heavies.
18 Aug 2020, 09:59 AM
#58
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
it should be nearly impossible to hit a full speed kubel for a TD or AT gun. period.
Sure, but it should be the exact same for UC, M3 and M20.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
18 Aug 2020, 10:24 AM
#59
Posts: 2243
Sure, but it should be the exact same for UC, M3 and M20.
yeah..it was only a example with the kubel. all light verhicle should only hit by luck from a TD or AT gun
18 Aug 2020, 11:03 AM
#60
Posts: 1289
Yes the far accuracy could go down.
Penetration could also go down either the base stat or the vet bonuses. Vetted SU-85 and and M36 have ridiculous high penetration, in the case of M36 that makes AP rounds almost pointless.
One could even make 2 separate types of round for heavy Tds similar to the 76mm Sherman one normal AP rounds to be used vs medium vehicles and one high AP rounds specially designed vs Super heavies adjusting ROF, damage, accuracy,... accordingly and thus separating the balancing between mediums tanks and Super heavies.
I am not convinced at switchable ammo. It seems more of a unesecarry hinderence then a good balance change.
This would effect one side way more then the other. Allies have fewer tanks that require axis to go heavy td rounds.
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