Why is the Jagdtiger so pointless

Soviets a vast majority of the time go for a 152. For a while is2s were basically a given but now heavies are just bigger t34s/m4/p4s with almost zero lasting impact because they're either too slow or fragile to do what they're asked to do.

Not sure if that's a good or bad thing but it is what it is.

So Elefant and isu is just where it's at in 2v2. Breakthrough doctrine doesn't hold a candle to Elefant / stuka / recon so why go there? Double okw chances do not drastically increase for a long while if one of them picks Breakthrough. Imo anyway.

So to say. The Jagdtiger was extremely unreliable and often broke down. Also his low moblity made it prone to Airstrikes because of it's big Target size. Certainly not fun to use altough effective against allied armor. Allies quickly figured this out and destroyed most of the deployed ones. Only 3 survived the war so I'd say it is kinda accurate

Heh.

If the game was IRL-ready then pretty much every Axis tank except P4s would regularly break down.
There is no reason to play Jagd or elefant in 2v2 unless the enemy fields an ISU152. ISU152 can also be countered by pretty much anything. It's just a semi-stationary cannon in HE mode and mediocre TD in AP mode. Problem is, people expect to blob against it and win. Some maps are heaven for ISU152, even in 2v2 where you have a lot of unobstructed vision to snipe (same goes for axis HTD)

if this is true, that ISU can be countert by pretty much anything....than the jagtiger should be countert by even more than anything, since it is slower, has nearly no AI and no AA.

ISU has a much bigge advantage over the jgtiger: the great vs all targets option. Jgtiger let u stay with great AT. and a lot of popcap ....and than u need a lot of AI unit and even AT to support the slow jgtiger vs flanks. and even then a coming-out-of-nowhere-t34-ram-with-IL2 action can bring it down in less than 10sec. with no big effort or skill. u click 2 buttons.

Jagd is seldom seen in such modes since you don't need it in such modes. Getting it in 3v3 and 4v4 is great. Don't think there is a teamgame where elefant of jagd are not present at some point in time. It's a unit you get to deny every ally armour, including ISU (500-550 penetration vs 340 armour, 100% penetration at all ranges on all units). ISU also can't touch it due to high armour and higher HP. Same as how ISU is often taken in teamgames and less so in 2v2 and never on 1v1, so are elefant and jagd. Great team game tanks.

That is simply false since ISU-152 has deflection damage and will damage any target it hits. Even more so if ones combines it with "mark target".

If axis do not built a Elefant or a JT in a 3vs3 or 4vs4 they probably see their armour evaporate from the 60 range allied TDs before they can even fire a single shot.

For the TD role alone a pair of elite armour jagdpanzers seem more viable with the heat rounds and self repair. More mobile and less risky to use, only downside is spotting, unless you got a 221 around.

For the TD role alone a pair of elite armour jagdpanzers seem more viable with the heat rounds and self repair. More mobile and less risky to use, only downside is spotting, unless you got a 221 around.

correct.
But no one would say: 2 SU85 are better than an ISU.
you would choose every time the ISU. because of the high wiping potential and more range...and even good AT.

a jgtiger is a shot in the own knee...when playing vs smart enemies

correct.
But no one would say: 2 SU85 are better than an ISU.
you would choose every time the ISU. because of the high wiping potential and more range...and even good AT.

a jgtiger is a shot in the own knee...when playing vs smart enemies

2 SU-85s are incomparably better AT then ISU tho. Its not even the same planet that's how ahead 2 85s AT is better then ISUs. AI is completely IRRELEVANT for discussing AT alone, you know, like in the post you've quoted and replied to.

Why are you even comparing that? Have you completely ignored first 5 words from his posts, because it doesn't suit your narrative?

correct.
But no one would say: 2 SU85 are better than an ISU.
you would choose every time the ISU. because of the high wiping potential and more range...and even good AT.

a jgtiger is a shot in the own knee...when playing vs smart enemies

Side to side of ISU and JGDT:

Armour and HP: Jagd wins with 110 more frontal armour and 80 more hp and 45 less rear armour
Damage and Penetration AT: Jagd wins with 60 more dmg and 100% penetration vs all targets
Damage and penetration AI: ISU 152 wins with switchable ammunition which takes %d seconds to swap making it impossible to target both AI and AT at the same time. HE ammo is exceptionally good vs soft targets.
Rate of Fire: Jagd wins with 8.55 vs 9-11 seconds reload.

Abilities: Jagd has more if I'm not mistaken. The 128mm howitzer shell for infantry and APCBC for long range through buildings.

Maneuverability: Pretty much the same

So. Raw stats you can see that Jagd denies all allied armour while ISU denies Axis infantry charges. Seems pretty asymmetrically balanced to me. The commanders in which the units are is a different story and should be looked at separately.

Point is: You would not choose ISU to fight tanks due to the long ammo swap and difficulty staying on target (eg fast Panthers and P4s) and you wouldn't choose Jagd to fight infantry.
Soviets for AT have 85 and OKW for infantry has stukas and obers. ISU 152 complements AI power for soviets and Jagd complements AT for OKW. Although with the existance of Jagdpanzer in OKW, Jagd in smaller modes is useless. Jagdpanzer has 230 armour and 60 range making it excellent vs ally tank destroyers as the ally TDs won't penetrate 100% and JgdPanzer will.

Jagdtiger is pointless in weak hands.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like JT is 'bad' because of the self spotting ele, which is completely broken combo on its own and should have a fate similar to OKW tiger with Panzer Commander

Side to side of ISU and JGDT:

Armour and HP: Jagd wins with 110 more frontal armour and 80 more hp and 45 less rear armour
Damage and Penetration AT: Jagd wins with 60 more dmg and 100% penetration vs all targets
Damage and penetration AI: ISU 152 wins with switchable ammunition which takes %d seconds to swap making it impossible to target both AI and AT at the same time. HE ammo is exceptionally good vs soft targets.
Rate of Fire: Jagd wins with 8.55 vs 9-11 seconds reload.

Abilities: Jagd has more if I'm not mistaken. The 128mm howitzer shell for infantry and APCBC for long range through buildings.

Maneuverability: Pretty much the same

So. Raw stats you can see that Jagd denies all allied armour while ISU denies Axis infantry charges. Seems pretty asymmetrically balanced to me. The commanders in which the units are is a different story and should be looked at separately.

Point is: You would not choose ISU to fight tanks due to the long ammo swap and difficulty staying on target (eg fast Panthers and P4s) and you wouldn't choose Jagd to fight infantry.
Soviets for AT have 85 and OKW for infantry has stukas and obers. ISU 152 complements AI power for soviets and Jagd complements AT for OKW. Although with the existance of Jagdpanzer in OKW, Jagd in smaller modes is useless. Jagdpanzer has 230 armour and 60 range making it excellent vs ally tank destroyers as the ally TDs won't penetrate 100% and JgdPanzer will.

Jagdtiger is pointless in weak hands.

1. Maneuverability: not really pretty much the same:
ISU vet3: Speed: 5.4 Accel: 1.7 Rotate: 19.2
jgtiger vet5: Speed: 3.6 Accel: 0.5 Rotate: 14.4

this both units are completely out of incomparable in Maneuverability. one is super slow, one is really mobile for the heavy tank tag

2. ISU comes in meta commander with mark target and bombing run. which gives u 100% pene on jgtiger and more dmg. and it gives u the one-click-abiltys to delete a jgtiger easily

3. jagtiger has only one barrage. ISU has switchable shells and really good mg on top.

1. Maneuverability: not really pretty much the same:
ISU vet3: Speed: 5.4 Accel: 1.7 Rotate: 19.2
jgtiger vet5: Speed: 3.6 Accel: 0.5 Rotate: 14.4

You want to say that you never once got mobility upgrade for JT?
These stats are valid for whole 30 seconds it takes for the upgrade to kick in.

2. ISU comes in meta commander with mark target and bombing run. which gives u 100% pene on jgtiger and more dmg. and it gives u the one-click-abiltys to delete a jgtiger easily

Panzerfussiliers never were more meta then they are right now, especially for team games.
Oh would you look at that! They are in team games popular JT commander!

Also, you do realize that mark target never increased penetration of anything? Shows how much you know about things you're trying to talk about.

3. jagtiger has only one barrage. ISU has switchable shells and really good mg on top.

ISU is generalist unit while JT is AT specialist with AI ability.
Obviously ISU will have better AI, are you trying to say something here or just wanted to point out the obvious?

You want to say that you never once got mobility upgrade for JT?
These stats are valid for whole 30 seconds it takes for the upgrade to kick in.

No longer the case, JT loses mobility buff in combat.

No longer the case, JT loses mobility buff in combat.

And how often do you have to actually move one of these if you didn't put them on literal front line?

You want to say that you never once got mobility upgrade for JT?
These stats are valid for whole 30 seconds it takes for the upgrade to kick in.


Panzerfussiliers never were more meta then they are right now, especially for team games.
Oh would you look at that! They are in team games popular JT commander!

Also, you do realize that mark target never increased penetration of anything? Shows how much you know about things you're trying to talk about.


ISU is generalist unit while JT is AT specialist with AI ability.
Obviously ISU will have better AI, are you trying to say something here or just wanted to point out the obvious?

oh my god... this mobilty buff works only in noncombat. Tell us: when will u need seriously need speed and mobility? Going to front....or when the enemy dive in and want to kill your big cat?
hm?

to make Jtiger work/effective, it needs an army of support so it doesnt get dived / b4'd / blobbed / rammed+offmap.
the choices/units you make to support the Jtiger can be very one-sided, and not very versatile, its a price you pay, but that price is too high IMO, you need MG's/spotters/AA/AT/Stuka/INF/ST-pios/mech-trucks for repair.
being so expensive, for such a single-purpose unit,with its fantastic AT, but it sacrifices so much that, and that isn't worth it in many cases, being so slow, it can't be moved around much, the whole support around it needs to follow it around.
and once the Jtiger is deployed, and enemy knows it, if they have half a brain, go around it/elsewhere with their faster tanks, making Jtiger a slow mobile 17-pounder, and few are stupid enough to charge a 17 pounder/jagdtiger head on, and just keep their tanks away from the reach of it, until a critical mass has been assembled to take it out.

Too slow to attack, too slow to get away, too expensive to lose......

And how often do you have to actually move one of these if you didn't put them on literal front line?

As ullumulu also pointed out the sluggishness becomes quite problematic when you are trying to get away from combat, especially when the tank gets flanked. And before anyone would say 'just avoid such situations' obviously it's not that simple, otherwise everyone would use JT and this thread wouldn't exists.
Also, the sluggishness becomes problematic when you are trying to hunt down a vehicle, cuz if they pay attention, then they can easily get their tanks out of JT's range after the first hit. This is the case where the far more mobile JPs perform better, but even the Elephant and ISU does so.

I really wish people would stop using the surrounding commander, especially one that is regarded as all as OP.
. Furthermore I'm not sure the argument of "it's better if you stack other abilities and units on top of it" really means it's better... It's like saying ost pios are better because they will have an mg42 behind them and doctrinaly can sprint so they get in and out of combat easier!

If you are comparing the units compare the units if you need to bring other units and abilities into the fold you are not comparing the units you are stacking the comparison

This would be how i would play the factions to protect my heavy TD, and which i consider good/minimum. There are of course variations to this with teams etc. But this is how i do:

breaktrough
ST-pios 2x 16pop (with shrecks)
pzfusilier/volks 2x 14pop (minimum inf, if you get pzfusiliers you get the flare which is very nice)
ir halftrack 1x 3pop
AA halftrack 1x 6pop (good at suppression also)
jagdpanzer 1x 15pop (good for supporting jagd/enemy dives)
stuka 1x 12pop (blob repellant, worse than katy while defending)
mg 1x 6pop (better than maxim?)
Jtiger 1x 23pop (sole purpose AT)

Total 81 pop

shock motor
isu-152 1x 22pop (good against all targets
su-85 1x 15pop (good to support ISU, forward vision)
katy 1x 12pop (blob repellant, better than stuka while defending)
mg 1x 6pop
aa halfrack 1x 5pop
cons 2x 14pop (minimum INF with repair doctrine)

Total 74pop

don't quote me on this, we all have different playstyles, but IMHO soviets needs less support/pop for their heavy TD, you could always go this and that, but what do i know, im just a noob :-)

As ullumulu also pointed out the sluggishness becomes quite problematic when you are trying to get away from combat, especially when the tank gets flanked. And before anyone would say 'just avoid such situations' obviously it's not that simple, otherwise everyone would use JT and this thread wouldn't exists.
Also, the sluggishness becomes problematic when you are trying to hunt down a vehicle, cuz if they pay attention, then they can easily get their tanks out of JT's range after the first hit. This is the case where the far more mobile JPs perform better, but even the Elephant and ISU does so.

So you invest time and resources to flank (hard to do on most team game maps since they are lane-y) a tank which completely deletes all armour in your lane. So you're keeping your tanks at a distance where they are useless, or deploy them to the allies sides and make a use of them. You then switch to infantry since Jagd is not really that good vs them but then you have to worry about stukas and MGs and even the jagd AI ability.

If you manage to flank Jagd then by God you should get that reward. And if you need to secure a critical mass to take out one supported tank, then doesn't that mean that the Jagd is a good option? You force the enemy to put a lot of effort into killing it and if you do manage to defend that push/flank, the enemy loses most of it's forces if you've got the micro skill.

Jagd is a high reward, high price unit. You need to defend it, put a couple of mines on a flank and just use the 70 range to deny everything. And not blob ofc, you want units to give vision and not having to retreat all at once.

jagdtiger and ele, in the past was complete cancer in teams games, they would dominate armour, they still do in a sense but no where near in way they used to be. They are still powerful is supported properly. One thing i would defiantly agree that other have said is the isu152, that unit most definitely needs to be nerfed.