Is the WC 51 overperforming ?

The WC51 is good enough that it'd still be used even if you removed Mark Target, 155mm Artillery and the vehicle crew.

It's a 200 MP, 0 FU clown car that can cap.

Still gets chosen by top 100 players so maybe it is not that "meh"




No earlygame advantages ? Riflemen beat Volks, Grens and even Sturmpioneers. Tell me more about no earlygame advantages



Probably. But it is by far not the only useful / strong part of this doctrine

Traditional "muh rifles" words.... Rifleman is maybe advantageous in early game but after grens get mg42 rifles bleeds like hell. So "rifles are best mainline inf in game" rhetoric does not help anything. And wc51 is ONLY thing that can pose threat to axis early game that in USF arsenal. Why every other faction has fun toys but not USF ?

Traditional "muh rifles" words.... Rifleman is maybe advantageous in early game but after grens get mg42 rifles bleeds like hell.

Hey listen ... I am gonna tell you a little secret. Riflemen can also be upgraded with LMGs. Crazy right ?

Show Spoiler

Is all this exaggeration necessary? You'd think any unit with a red health bar got a +50% stat buff...

Ok, i am going to throw my suggestion for the WC51 in the ring. Feel free to +1 it or tear it down.

- added fuel cost of 10
- MP cost to 250 from 200
- Remove artillery, move it to the M3 halftrack maybe?(atleast something usefull instead of utterly useless medical crates, you have a ambulance for that)
- Replace artillery with a 81mm mortar barrage, not sure what kind(HE, smoke, WP, maybe mixed?) Still needs vet 3
- Mark target adjusted(not sure what debuffs it gives to vehicles atm, if someone can give me some numbers that would be great for all of us)

Ok, i am going to throw my suggestion for the WC51 in the ring. Feel free to +1 it or tear it down.

- added fuel cost of 10
- MP cost to 250 from 200
- Remove artillery, move it to the M3 halftrack maybe?(atleast something usefull instead of utterly useless medical crates, you have a ambulance for that)
- Replace artillery with a 81mm mortar barrage, not sure what kind(HE, smoke, WP, maybe mixed?) Still needs vet 3
- Mark target adjusted(not sure what debuffs it gives to vehicles atm, if someone can give me some numbers that would be great for all of us)

Lmao no

Ok, i am going to throw my suggestion for the WC51 in the ring. Feel free to +1 it or tear it down.

- added fuel cost of 10
- MP cost to 250 from 200
- Remove artillery, move it to the M3 halftrack maybe?(atleast something usefull instead of utterly useless medical crates, you have a ambulance for that)
- Replace artillery with a 81mm mortar barrage, not sure what kind(HE, smoke, WP, maybe mixed?) Still needs vet 3
- Mark target adjusted(not sure what debuffs it gives to vehicles atm, if someone can give me some numbers that would be great for all of us)

So you want to both make it cost AND be worse at the same time? Yeah no.

So you want to both make it cost AND be worse at the same time? Yeah no.

The WC51 currently has:

- self repair with crew
- a decent HMG that is better than the kubel, can definetly 1v1 most german starting infantry w/o snares
- Can capture points(w/o infantry inside it)
- Mark target
- Arty barrage that can wreck pretty much anything
- for 200 mp available from the start, cheaper than the kubel(slightly)

And this is somehow no issue? Atleast the crew needs to go.

Originally the mechanized company had the arty barrage as a unic ability and Mr.smith couldn't remove it because the commander has been sold with the feature.
Would you agree to see the TA remove from its commander after buying it? nop, so same for the arty barrage. Fortunately or unfornately, the ability can't be removed from the doctrine unless you give in exchange something better.

About the WC51 raw performance, the unit is carrying the doctrine at the moment. You're only buying the Sherman 76 because you had a good start with the jeep, Cav Riflemen are only interesting because the WC51 is there to open the path.

Is it too cheap? Well it's difficult to make it more expensive than a Kubel since it lacks of combat capability before upgrade.

Remove the crew? Difficult to understand the reason why, we're not talking about the pershing which is unic or Calliope/Priest where the player could abuse it to spam them.

Disable its loading function once upgraded? that's not a nerf for it but for the Cav Riflemen

Reduce its raw dps performing stats? I don't see them overperforming, the .50 cost 45 munitions which delay CaptBAR or LtZook, that's a clear trade off.

The WC51 is still vulnerable to anything having a gun and usually disapear once a 222, a luch or HTAA hit the field. You most likely have to build a new one to use the barrage ability so adding a 200mp cost to the barrage.

It's in the loadout of virtually every match in top 100. No idea what you're smoking.

Yes, the WC51 is the main reason to get the commander. Because it's pretty damn fking OP. It's insanely fast and can outrun a 222, has 45 range, high dps, and is great for cheesey chase-wipes in the first 5 mins of the game, which allows you to build that USF snowball.

The whole commander (the way VonIvan popularised it) was built on WC51 abuse into quick Sherman and snowballing/bleeding your opponent super hard. Go big or go home style of play.

It's actually the easiest ultra light to keep alive into the midgame since it has muni-free step on it, high sight range, and insane speed/acceleration values. Most players lose it to mines or unexpected rak/pak hitting from afar rather than the 222 or Luchs.

Are you sure you are specifically not talking about 1v1 top 100s and also accommodating the remainder of the 3 modes 2v2,3v3 and 4v4? Additionally, I would appreciate any replays where the WC51 survived past the 10 minute mark. You guys are literally over rating this, it is not that sturdy of a unit to be alive when a OST pz4 or OKW pz 4 hits the map which is usually around 13 min for using the Mark target ability. Comparing to it even the M20 seems to have a bad time with good speed and smoke ability and it has the almost the same weapon profile.

Also it would be hard to defend that it does have a few too many abilities which are useless in the early game like MT, Barrage and it barely survives for them to be used in the late game but still they can prove useful if the unit does survive post 10 min mark like Marking a target tank and then speed it up out of its range after taking 1 shot same with the barrage. I have played against it and it did cause some problem early game but then would die to a faust and small arms.

Originally the mechanized company had the arty barrage as a unic ability and Mr.smith couldn't remove it because the commander has been sold with the feature.
Would you agree to see the TA remove from its commander after buying it? nop, so same for the arty barrage. Fortunately or unfornately, the ability can't be removed from the doctrine unless you give in exchange something better.

About the WC51 raw performance, the unit is carrying the doctrine at the moment. You're only buying the Sherman 76 because you had a good start with the jeep, Cav Riflemen are only interesting because the WC51 is there to open the path.

Is it too cheap? Well it's difficult to make it more expensive than a Kubel since it lacks of combat capability before upgrade.

Remove the crew? Difficult to understand the reason why, we're not talking about the pershing which is unic or Calliope/Priest where the player could abuse it to spam them.

Disable its loading function once upgraded? that's not a nerf for it but for the Cav Riflemen

Reduce its raw dps performing stats? I don't see them overperforming, the .50 cost 45 munitions which delay CaptBAR or LtZook, that's a clear trade off.

The WC51 is still vulnerable to anything having a gun and usually disapear once a 222, a luch or HTAA hit the field. You most likely have to build a new one to use the barrage ability so adding a 200mp cost to the barrage.

Exactly! This added to the fact that Axis infantry have the most snares and available from the start while allied infantry lack snares to counter early vehicles. If wc51 was sturdy same could be applied for M20 yet it dies with smoke and over the top speed and barely survives after the 10 min mark. People here have an agenda and they don't wanna see any early game advantage for allies coz they wanna have them all.

Originally the mechanized company had the arty barrage as a unic ability and Mr.smith couldn't remove it because the commander has been sold with the feature.
Would you agree to see the TA remove from its commander after buying it? nop, so same for the arty barrage. Fortunately or unfornately, the ability can't be removed from the doctrine unless you give in exchange something better.

That is simply false. The same commander had the unique ability "Withdraw and Refit" which was removed

About the WC51 raw performance, the unit is carrying the doctrine at the moment. You're only buying the Sherman 76 because you had a good start with the jeep, Cav Riflemen are only interesting because the WC51 is there to open the path.

Even if that was true it would be even more reason to nerf the WC51 since it makes the commander a one trick pony.

Is it too cheap? Well it's difficult to make it more expensive than a Kubel since it lacks of combat capability before upgrade.

if that is problem have start with a gun.

Remove the crew? Difficult to understand the reason why, we're not talking about the pershing which is unic or Calliope/Priest where the player could abuse it to spam them.

It is not really difficult to understand. It makes the unit more balanced.

Disable its loading function once upgraded? that's not a nerf for it but for the Cav Riflemen

It is a nerf to the unit, cav R can still you the m3 and one would have even more reason to built the m3

Reduce its raw dps performing stats? I don't see them overperforming, the .50 cost 45 munitions which delay CaptBAR or LtZook, that's a clear trade off.

Yes it does over perform, it even has a longer range. It also arrives sooner the infantry weapons

The WC51 is still vulnerable to anything having a gun and usually disapear once a 222, a luch or HTAA hit the field. You most likely have to build a new one to use the barrage ability so adding a 200mp cost to the barrage.

So is Kubel. If one can not protect one's WC51 one can still disembark and use the crew to cap and repair. Then one can still use mark target or barrage when one needs it.

WC51 is over-performing for cost and the commander ability simply provides too many things.

Oh man I should use my WC51 right now before nerfs hit!

That is simply false. The same commander had the unique ability "Withdraw and Refit" which was removed


Even if that was true it would be even more reason to nerf the WC51 since it makes the commander a one trick pony.



if that is problem have start with a gun.


It is not really difficult to understand. It makes the unit more balanced.


It is a nerf to the unit, cav R can still you the m3 and one would have even more reason to built the m3


Yes it does over perform, it even has a longer range. It also arrives sooner the infantry weapons


So is Kubel. If one can not protect one's WC51 one can still disembark and use the crew to cap and repair. Then one can still use mark target or barrage when one needs it.

WC51 is over-performing for cost and the commander ability simply provides too many things.

Do you compare Withdraw and Refit which was barely used with the most powerfull barrage USF had from a doctrine? I mean many commanders sold have been revamp but never the last and powerful ability have been simply removed, why do you think Mr.Smith had to tie it to the jeep in the first place after adding the sherman?

For the rest of your arguments, we could apply it to all early game call-in units. They come early and are game changer: they're here for that. Cavriflemen and sherman76 are okish units that don't really give anything if you can't make the WC51 giving you the early game advantage, that doesn't make the WC51 OP in any way, just make them over dependent on how you manage your early game (WC51 or not).

Do you compare Withdraw and Refit which was barely used with the most powerfull barrage USF had from a doctrine? I mean many commanders sold have been revamp but never the last and powerful ability have been simply removed, why do you think Mr.Smith had to tie it to the jeep in the first place after adding the sherman?

I am not comparing anything. I am simply saying that the argument that an ability can not be removed from a commander because people bought the commander does not hold water.

On top of that TOT is probably more powerful.

For the rest of your arguments, we could apply it to all early game call-in units. They come early and are game changer: they're here for that. Cavriflemen and sherman76 are okish units that don't really give anything if you can't make the WC51 giving you the early game advantage, that doesn't make the WC51 OP in any way, just make them over dependent on how you manage your early game (WC51 or not).

WC51 is OP regardless of the rest of commander. If the rest of the commander abilities where UP one could argue it was necessary to be OP to carry the commander. That is simply not the case.

The commander was the second pick with WC2019 and the WC51 the 3 most built vehicle (not counting the Ambulance) although doctrinal and most build doctrinal vehicle.

The WC51 can and should be nerfed without causing major issues.

I am not comparing anything. I am simply saying that the argument that an ability can not be removed from a commander because people bought the commander does not hold water.

On top of that TOT is probably more powerful.


WC51 is OP regardless of the rest of commander. If the rest of the commander abilities where UP one could argue it was necessary to be OP to carry the commander. That is simply not the case.

The commander was the second pick with WC2019 and the WC51 the 3 most built vehicle (not counting the Ambulance) although doctrinal and most build doctrinal vehicle.

The WC51 can and should be nerfed without causing major issues.

Oh, so 5men gren and Ostruppen are OP by your logic.

Ah no, sorry your logic only works when the unit is tag "allied".

ToT is definitively not more powerful than the mechanized barrage which could, when it was release, take down the shwerer, and now something between 60-70% of it.

Oh, so 5men gren and Ostruppen are OP by your logic.

Neither 5 men grenadier nor ostruppen provide access to 2 doctrinal units and 3 doctrinal abilities.

If you ask me the reliance of Ostheer to specific commanders is an indication of bad design.

Ah no, sorry your logic only works when the unit is tag "allied".

Lets try to avoid the personal remarks, they are counter productive.

ToT is definitively not more powerful than the mechanized barrage which could, when it was release, take down the shwerer, and now something between 60-70% of it.

It has become very powerful since it was last patched. USF of map artillery might have been weaker than 155 barrage but they have received buffs and any gap that might be once there has been closed.

How a ability was on release is rather irrelevant.

Neither 5 men grenadier nor ostruppen provide access to 2 doctrinal units and 3 doctrinal abilities.

That wasn't your argument about the WC51 on your last post and this last one doesn't make sense anyway.

Neither 5 men grenadier nor ostruppen provide access to 2 doctrinal units and 3 doctrinal abilities.

Teeeechnically, veteran squad leader provides much more, affecting 3 completely different squads and enhancing their strengths and giving them doctrinal abilities(repair on non engineers IS a doctrinal ability since day 1).

Availability is also factor on the impact of doctrinal ability and last time I've checked, people build noticeably more grens, PGs and pios over the course of single game then they build dodge trucks.

That wasn't your argument about the WC51 on your last post and this last one doesn't make sense anyway.

In this thread there have been clear arguments why WC51 is OP even in first post of the thread.

Comparing units like 5 men grenadiers and Ostruppen with WC51 makes not sense, you can compare the abilities thou and that is what I compared.

If you do not like my arguments read the arguments others have already posted including OP.

WC51 is simply OP.