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No compensation for deleting the Ost T4 cap buff?

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thedarkarmadillo
2 Aug 2020, 14:53 PM
#21
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 14:29 PMBetterDead ThanRed
just how bad would it be to have non-doctrine 5man gren squads like Kyle suggested?
OFC this would cause some other issues but how is this a big problem?


people think adding models is an easy thing to implement but it changes a lot and is difficult to balance. look at conscripts who were often regarded as garbage and never deemed worth investing in, but now with 7 man, even being so delayed are suddenly worth getting and are now a staple of the faction (as they were supposed to be)
look at UKF. their infantry will NEVER be balanced as long as they can freely get 5 men with no thought other than affordability.

adding a model does much more than it seems. an extra man isnt just 80 more hp, its also 25% more firepower (for 4 man going to 5 man squads) its also 25% more targets meaning models are less likely to be burst down meaning more actual dps. it also affects build times and repair speeds.

is the 5th man going to be locked out with the lmg specifically in place to offset the small squad size?
is the 5th man going to replace the 20% damage reduction at vet 3?
is it going to effect reinforcement costs via adjusting for the formula? is it going to stack with the buff at t4?
will the number of ways ost has to offset the expected casualties need changed when durability is increased? ost has more on field healing and reinforcement stock that they can shake a stick at. combine this with previous considerations and you end up with an immovable force.
how will this increased durability work with something like a command panzer?

5 models at vet 3 with a command panzer could end up as a rifle squad with an lmg that ignores 30% of all damage incoming.... that would be madness.

this is a dramatic change that alters the entire faction design and can easily be incredibly OP especially when you consider that the faction with something similar (ukf) still hasnt found balance with such an ability and a faction where the ability is not only restricted heavily but also is in line wth the units design (sov) has proven incredibly strong.

there is a reason the ability is restricted for ost. its powerful and too hard to balance outside being a one off.
#stalinwept
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BetterDead ThanRed
2 Aug 2020, 15:02 PM
#22
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was thinking of how OST would be if they didn't have to be so armour dependant to compensate for average INF.

OST Wehraboo 4v4 main
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SkysTheLimit
2 Aug 2020, 15:08 PM
#23
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 15:02 PMBetterDead ThanRed
if they didn't have to be so armour dependant to compensate for average INF.


You get pgrens after BP1. What are you talking about?

They also have the best HMG in the game, their infantry is fine. Stock 5 man grens is absurd, I really can't believe people are still asking for this
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Vipper
2 Aug 2020, 15:19 PM
#24
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 11:17 AMProtos Angelus


....
Firefly as well, 35 sight
...

FF sight should be considered at 45.
:)
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GachiGasm
2 Aug 2020, 15:20 PM
#25
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 15:08 PMSkysTheLimit


You get pgrens after BP1. What are you talking about?

They also have the best HMG in the game, their infantry is fine. Stock 5 man grens is absurd, I really can't believe people are still asking for this


Problem is, ost inf scales badly into lategame if you are playing without any doc. stuff.

Personally, I like LMG grens, they do feel powerfull, while default grens feels meh. 5 men grens are fine, G43 grens are somewhat fine, G43 PGs are excellent.

I find myself skipping T1 most of the time in favor of getting G43 PGs fast.

Grens are in general feels out of place. They are just not worth playing with in a long run.

You will lose long range fight vs UKF, USF can just rush you, Sov are fine as long as its not penals.

T1 is only good for sniper\mortar, but grens are meh.

Not to mention considering Bren carrier, Jeep and Clowncar possible oppenings, rushing BP1 will hardcounter it and you wont bleed as a pig trying to snare and finish it.

On the other note, I really hate 5 men grens. Not because their power, but because it removes any possabilities of buffing them. I would rather honestly see them as more expensiмe 260\270 inf, but with proper long range power and survivability. But now its not possible because 5 men up exists.
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BetterDead ThanRed
2 Aug 2020, 15:32 PM
#26
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Skysthelimit.
PGrens are good, but expensive to build and reinforce. and can be butchered charging into INF in cover.
MG42 is great, but they are IMO too slow to re-position to adjust to flanks/smoking. but nvm.

i feel that giving the grens a different upgrade according to playstyle/situation, would be nice, but feel this would leave the standard russian INF found wanting
OST Wehraboo 4v4 main
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thedarkarmadillo
2 Aug 2020, 15:33 PM
#27
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 15:20 PMGachiGasm


Problem is, ost inf scales badly into lategame if you are playing without any doc. stuff.

Personally, I like LMG grens, they do feel powerfull, while default grens feels meh. 5 men grens are fine, G43 grens are somewhat fine, G43 PGs are excellent.

I find myself skipping T1 most of the time in favor of getting G43 PGs fast.

Grens are in general feels out of place. They are just not worth playing with in a long run.

You will lose long range fight vs UKF, USF can just rush you, Sov are fine as long as its not penals.

T1 is only good for sniper\mortar, but grens are meh.

Not to mention considering Bren carrier, Jeep and Clowncar possible oppenings, rushing BP1 will hardcounter it and you wont bleed as a pig trying to snare and finish it.

On the other note, I really hate 5 men grens. Not because their power, but because it removes any possabilities of buffing them. I would rather honestly see them as more expensiмe 260\270 inf, but with proper long range power and survivability. But now its not possible because 5 men up exists.


so the issue is that unsupported grens lose against more expensive infantry?

all grens need is a bonus against suppressed and pinned units to highlight them as support for the lmg42. they are not supposed to be fighting anything but conscripts alone
#stalinwept
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GachiGasm
2 Aug 2020, 15:57 PM
#28
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 15:33 PMthedarkarmadillo


so the issue is that unsupported grens lose against more expensive infantry?

all grens need is a bonus against suppressed and pinned units to highlight them as support for the lmg42. they are not supposed to be fighting anything but conscripts alone


Yes it is the issue, not in unit but in design and enviroment it face. When you effectively need 2 units to fight 1. HMG42 can aswell force to retreat or hold the ground with or without grens.

Also again, this "more expensive" aurgument cant be really applyed to grens, because you actually need to spend time and resourses to get them. At least all other main-line inf comes from HQ. Sure you are not only getting grens, but also access to sniper\mortars, but still.

At the same time if MG42 was swaped with grens, ost would have been over run in every single match.

After all balance changes and new factions added, grens were left only balanced against Soviet cons, where cons win and close range, if they can get into it fast and grens win at long range.

Thats why pretty much osttropens are so popular, why 5 men grens are popular, why T1 skip is popular. Not because all of this are OP, but because you can make use of it and you wont be always 1 step behind your opponent if terms of mainline inf.

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SkysTheLimit
2 Aug 2020, 16:30 PM
#29
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 15:57 PMGachiGasm

Thats why pretty much osttropens are so popular, why 5 men grens are popular, why T1 skip is popular. Not because all of this are OP, but because you can make use of it and you wont be always 1 step behind your opponent if terms of mainline inf.


So your argument is that grens are bad because ost has meta commanders? You don't think every faction has dominant commanders that everyone picks?

I'll say it again, if you want grens to be better, you need to be ready for the mg42 to get nerfed. There's a reason it's so much better than every other MG
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thedarkarmadillo
2 Aug 2020, 16:41 PM
#30
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 15:57 PMGachiGasm


Yes it is the issue, not in unit but in design and enviroment it face. When you effectively need 2 units to fight 1. HMG42 can aswell force to retreat or hold the ground with or without grens.

Also again, this "more expensive" aurgument cant be really applyed to grens, because you actually need to spend time and resourses to get them. At least all other main-line inf comes from HQ. Sure you are not only getting grens, but also access to sniper\mortars, but still.

At the same time if MG42 was swaped with grens, ost would have been over run in every single match.

After all balance changes and new factions added, grens were left only balanced against Soviet cons, where cons win and close range, if they can get into it fast and grens win at long range.

Thats why pretty much osttropens are so popular, why 5 men grens are popular, why T1 skip is popular. Not because all of this are OP, but because you can make use of it and you wont be always 1 step behind your opponent if terms of mainline inf.


grens since the dawn of time were never supposed to be without support. its factional design and aside from some tweaks it works well enough. the issue is that due to the way supression works, grens lose their bite when along side the lmg.

if you want to argue how much extra grens are, (80mp and 10 fuel) and come with a snare, you could compare to say their matchup faction the soviet, who end up paying more and getting less to match an engineer/mg/ infantry start and then having to pay for their snare extra afterwards as well.

grens were not left in the dust against other factions, grens were never meant to stand quad for squad against other allied infantry. this is reflected in their cost. and do keep in mind as well, while allied squads cost more and do beat them, they also have additional costs ONTOP of being more expensive. the snare alone is a huge factor. rifles have to earn it, cons have to buy it and tommies never get it. then add in normal nades where all allied factions have to pay additional fuel. and then weapon upgrades, grens get theirs very fast and can arm on the field, western allies need to buy racks and cons need to wait until t4 to get their upgrade (or pay a huge amount to get it earlier)

you get a lot for how little you pay for grens, but fighting off more expensive semi elite infantry isnt one of the things you get.

again, all they need is a bonus against suppressed troops and id like to see the damage reduction at vet 3 moved to when t4 is built just so its on all grens not just vetted ones as it makes losing a vetted squad much less punishing.


but again, grens are not nor have they ever been meant to fight off western allies mainlines alone.
#stalinwept
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Vipper
2 Aug 2020, 16:55 PM
#31
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:41 PMthedarkarmadillo

grens since the dawn of time were never supposed to be without support. ...

And:
Soviet where not meant to have semi-elite stock mainline infantry
USF where not meant to support from good support weapons
UKF where not meant to have snare

Problem is that there is power creep and although grenadier have received buff the "combined arms" thing does not seem to work any more since other faction can either counter it with equally effective combined arm or with sear brute force. Something that Ostheer do with PGs.

And that is why imo one should start nerfing the other factions instead of buffing Ostheer.
:)
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thedarkarmadillo
2 Aug 2020, 17:04 PM
#32
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:55 PMVipper

And:
Soviet where not meant to have semi-elite stock mainline infantry
penals have always been there, just poorly executed. they were supposed to be exactly what they are.

USF where not meant to support from good support weapons
usf has always had good support weapons, just access was limited

UKF where not meant to have snare
ukf were not supposed to have TRADITIONAL snares, but were given them as a result of neutering all their alternate snare


Problem is that there is power creep and although grenadier have received buff the "combined arms" thing does not seem to work any more since other faction can either counter it with equally effective combined arm or with sear brute force. Something that Ostheer do with PGs.
ost combined arms could be buffed a bit, as i have suggested but i maintain, grens are not supposed to be winning fights against equal WFA infantry, they have the luxury of being long ranged which allows them to poke. reducing or better yet removing the suppression damage reduction for grens would allow them to keep up their bite when slowing down the enemy. grens are supposed to be the safe support infantry, which with a bit of tweaking that role can be refined.

And that is why imo one should start nerfing the other factions instead of buffing Ostheer.
#stalinwept
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GachiGasm
2 Aug 2020, 17:12 PM
#33
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:41 PMthedarkarmadillo

if you want to argue how much extra grens are, (80mp and 10 fuel) and come with a snare, you could compare to say their matchup faction the soviet, who end up paying more and getting less to match an engineer/mg/ infantry start and then having to pay for their snare extra afterwards as well.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:41 PMthedarkarmadillo

grens were not left in the dust against other factions, grens were never meant to stand quad for squad against other allied infantry. this is reflected in their cost. and do keep in mind as well, while allied squads cost more and do beat them, they also have additional costs ONTOP of being more expensive.

True but you also shoudnt forget that only allies have access to light vehicles at the start of the game. And this is a huge factor aswell, that the sole reason why OKW suffers THAT bad right now from them because they dont have access to snare, aside from fusiliers, untill tech. Allies have to pay\ern it sure, but also allies dont face vehicles strate of the bat. And you dont need snares to counter kubel.

USF\UKF have to pay for the nades, sure. But trade off for that is that your mainline inf is supperior in raw firepower, while Grens need their rifle nades to either fight supperior inf or 6 men support crews. But anyway they are still locked behind BP1.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:41 PMthedarkarmadillo

And then weapon upgrades, grens get theirs very fast and can arm on the field, western allies need to buy racks

True, but upgraded USF\UKF inf ends up still better then upgraded grens, racks are here to allow you to scale your inf from early to mid to late game. In general upgrading grens is not something "optional" which changes their play, its the only way to make them stand a chance.

Soviet yes, but soviet were made to play with call-in inf, now they have penals\call-in\7-men squads. 7-men sqauds are here to make cons scale into late game. By the time grens get LMGs you would have elite inf to fight them, early on grens vs cons play is balanced.
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Katitof
2 Aug 2020, 17:31 PM
#34
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:55 PMVipper

And:
Soviet where not meant to have semi-elite stock mainline infantry

You sure?
Penals were at PG price point.
PGs are semi-elite inf.
Seems to me like Penals were meant to have that role from day 1, the only thing that changed is instead of being CQC exclusively they now can actually attack at range.

USF where not meant to support from good support weapons

Worst mortar in game, worst ATG in game unless you constantly pump muni into it.

UKF where not meant to have snare

They most certainly were meant to have snare, but that snare got removed from the game.
Already forgot that sniper engine shot was a snare?
AEC had permanent effects on abilities, not timed ones?
They were not meant to have a snare on mainline inf, that still holds true.

Problem is that there is power creep and although grenadier have received buff the "combined arms" thing does not seem to work any more since other faction can either counter it with equally effective combined arm or with sear brute force. Something that Ostheer do with PGs.

Compensated with power creep of ost support units.
You never could and never will be able to play with grens only without doctrinal support of that playstyle.

And that is why imo one should start nerfing the other factions instead of buffing Ostheer.


And every single balance team member have said to you about 1000 times its not going to happen regardless of how many times you will repeat it in all the different threads.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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thedarkarmadillo
2 Aug 2020, 17:46 PM
#35
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 17:31 PMKatitof

worst ATG in game unless you constantly pump muni into it.


off topic here but i feel the need to point out that the usf AT gun performs incredibly for its price point of only 270mp. its better than the rest at lights due to the fastest rof and better than the rest with additional munitions. it also has the longest range. not the worst, just different. kinda like grens tbh...
#stalinwept
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BetterDead ThanRed
2 Aug 2020, 17:47 PM
#36
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there are games, on redball etc. where the mid-VP is constantly contested late game, both sides have lotsa armour, arty, and offmaps.
every INF that gets sent into the VP to flip it, gets mullered by all available tools at the players disposal.
Here the durability of INF is essential to survive long enough to cap it being shot at/pinned/smoked/barraged.
here the difference between 3-7 man squads becomes crystal clear, and with OST/OKW having mostly 4man squads, suffer alot from this, even vet3 Grens suffer with their -20% received dmg, not to mention if they were fresh from the barracks due to the constant wiping with artillery, and when everyone is throwing desperatively all INF into the VP, the allies IMHO have a clear advantage.
could we adress that?
by giving smaller squads ''hit the dirt'' or something along those lines?
this being a case for which i advocate for getting stock 5man grens, costing 60 muni? adding the total POPCOST up to 8, locking out the MG42 LMG. for extra added durablility to survive those situations, not to mention recrewing team weapons would be easier
OST Wehraboo 4v4 main
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thedarkarmadillo
2 Aug 2020, 18:01 PM
#37
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 17:47 PMBetterDead ThanRed
there are games, on redball etc. where the mid-VP is constantly contested late game, both sides have lotsa armour, arty, and offmaps.
every INF that gets sent into the VP to flip it, gets mullered by all available tools at the players disposal.
Here the durability of INF is essential to survive long enough to cap it being shot at/pinned/smoked/barraged.
here the difference between 3-7 man squads becomes crystal clear, and with OST/OKW having mostly 4man squads, suffer alot from this, even vet3 Grens suffer with their -20% received dmg, not to mention if they were fresh from the barracks due to the constant wiping with artillery, and when everyone is throwing desperatively all INF into the VP, the allies IMHO have a clear advantage.
could we adress that?
by giving smaller squads ''hit the dirt'' or something along those lines?

thats why i think the damage reduction should be tied to tech not vet. even 50/50 would be nice. however hit the dirt isnt going to help at all vs explosions which is the primary thing that makes small sizes suffer
#stalinwept
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BetterDead ThanRed
2 Aug 2020, 18:52 PM
#38
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that might even be overkill to have the dmg reduction tied to tier, but i like the idea.
perhaps having a single unit like the assault officer for the UKF?
nothing special about it, just a single unit that has more models and hp than its contemporaries in the OST?
OST Wehraboo 4v4 main
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Vipper
3 Aug 2020, 10:20 AM
#39
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 17:31 PMKatitof


All that are simply irrelevant to the point I made (some of it is also simply false). My point is quite simple that the original design of Ostheer no longer applies after all the changes the game has seen.


jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 17:31 PMKatitof

And every single balance team member have said to you about 1000 times its not going to happen regardless of how many times you will repeat it in all the different threads.

That is simply in untrue.
:)
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Applejack
4 Aug 2020, 03:01 AM
#40
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Posts: 359

The capture rate change should be seen as a fix rather than a nerf
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