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USF Calliope balancing

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Klement Pikhtura
1 Aug 2020, 07:18 AM
#41
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jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jul 2020, 17:00 PMthedarkarmadillo

Zu fus could eliminate an entire defensive line, weapons included with pinpoint accuracy while also coming drastically sooner and being cheaper than the calliope.

Frankly, imo, the calliope should be a Sherman variant or upgrade with a munitions barrage like the firefly. It puts strain on the economy for over use which is a balancing factor on its own but also justifies its durability slightly more.

I don't remember the exact cost since it was changed a bit ago, but you are basicly paying more for a worse katyusha EXCEPT that it's more durable.

I think this may be problematic, since it introduces the issue of rather safe shotgun barrages.
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thedarkarmadillo
1 Aug 2020, 14:37 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post1 Aug 2020, 07:18 AMKlement Pikhtura

I think this may be problematic, since it introduces the issue of rather safe shotgun barrages.

That's exactly what you pay so much for. I can absolutely get behind a 320hp mark but it's meant to be durable it is in fact it's iconic trait. The werfer has accuracy and alpha strike, the Katy has flexibility of range, the Stuka has high yield and accurate aiming, the mattress is damn near impossible to end for good since it can be recrewed and the calliope can get in and out of squiffy areas and deliver cheeky barrages. When it goes in for that shotgun barrage is when you jump it.
#stalinwept
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Klement Pikhtura
1 Aug 2020, 15:20 PM
#43
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jump backJump back to quoted post1 Aug 2020, 14:37 PMthedarkarmadillo

That's exactly what you pay so much for. I can absolutely get behind a 320hp mark but it's meant to be durable it is in fact it's iconic trait. The werfer has accuracy and alpha strike, the Katy has flexibility of range, the Stuka has high yield and accurate aiming, the mattress is damn near impossible to end for good since it can be recrewed and the calliope can get in and out of squiffy areas and deliver cheeky barrages. When it goes in for that shotgun barrage is when you jump it.

Current calliope is almoust light vehicle level flimsy, but what you described is medium tank durable. You get Calliope at 10 cp and this is pretty close to late game when, I'd say, when 300 hp is not a lot. Yes, current Calliope is not 1 shot thin, but still pretty low to be at least cautions about using it.

Personally I've never found this unit particularly oppressive and never enjoyed it using myself, so I'm kind of clueless why this is actually a thing, even after reading whole thread of arguments.
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Protos Angelus
1 Aug 2020, 23:48 PM
#44
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Darkarmadillo and Klement are quite right. Every barrage unit has it's merits and the notion of that should be preserved. Some units are squishier, some aren't. Some have this, some lack that.

The last thing we need from the balance team is the cookie cutting
"...more in line with..." business, which is just symmetrizing the game. Painting one unit in different colours and calling it different names.
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GachiGasm
2 Aug 2020, 03:33 AM
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It feels like some ppl in this thread intentionally or not think that proposal is to make capiope one-shotable unit.

Ppl ask here to lower its HP to 360 instead of 400, so it would die to 2 shots instead of 3.

And please, why are you acting like its perfomance as rocket arty is garbage. Its not worst then katy at shotgunning and even better then katy.

If katy can go into short range and shoot, being one-shotable unit, then lowering caliope HP wont take its "durability", "ment to be durable".

Still I dont see any logical explanation why 400HP is justified, while 360 is not, aside from abstruct one "its premium", "it has to be durable", "its a tank" and so on.
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Loren
2 Aug 2020, 03:49 AM
#46
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Calliope has a less veteran bonus to the barrage cooldown. The cooldown is 110 seconds (PW is 100 seconds) like any other rocket artillery, but the 2 vet bonus is much less, so the cooldown is longer than other artillery units.
It is also a tank-based vehicle, which is very expensive among artillery units and belongs to a slower timing.The point is this. Calliope has a lower cost effective firepower than other rocket artillery units. Instead, it is a unit that gains survivability.
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SkysTheLimit
2 Aug 2020, 15:14 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 03:33 AMGachiGasm

Still I dont see any logical explanation why 400HP is justified, while 360 is not, aside from abstruct one "its premium", "it has to be durable", "its a tank" and so on.


I'm fine with 360, but I don't understand your confusion. It's the most expensive rocket artillery, and it's not even stock. Pretty good reasons right there if you ask me...
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Vipper
2 Aug 2020, 15:28 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 15:14 PMSkysTheLimit


I'm fine with 360, but I don't understand your confusion. It's the most expensive rocket artillery, and it's not even stock. Pretty good reasons right there if you ask me...

Even if it is "justified" it bad from gameplay/designed point of view since Calliope are very hard counter. They can not be countered by artillery/off maps while one has to dive and risk more expensive unit to try to kill them. Even if one succeeds in killing the with a dive he might end up losing a more expensive unit and thus have a bad trade.
:)
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Hannibal
2 Aug 2020, 15:52 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 15:14 PMSkysTheLimit


I'm fine with 360, but I don't understand your confusion. It's the most expensive rocket artillery, and it's not even stock. Pretty good reasons right there if you ask me...


I do agrre with Vipper's response here.
Yes, it's somewhat more expensive by about 10-15 fuel (depending on what rocket arty you compare it with). Barrage recharge might be slightly longer, but overall the thing is super survivable.
At the moment it's 3 shots and 160 armor, making it an expected ~4 hits to be killed (at least frontally and assuming you dive a medium) plus misses. Even a Panther will likely need at least 4 shots.

As a slight exaggeration, I'd say the Calliope is near indestructible. And if you do, your tank had to push so deep into enemy territory that it is probably gone as well. There are more factors to all that like USF not having mines to deter divrs etc, but overall I'd say you get a bit too much for those 10-15 fuel.
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Descolata
2 Aug 2020, 15:52 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 15:28 PMVipper

Even if it is "justified" it bad from gameplay/designed point of view since Calliope are very hard counter. They can not be countered by artillery/off maps while one has to dive and risk more expensive unit to try to kill them. Even if one succeeds in killing the with a dive he might end up losing a more expensive unit and thus have a bad trade.


Literally all of that applies to the SZF, just the SZF will be at max firing range.
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Hannibal
2 Aug 2020, 16:00 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 15:52 PMDescolata


Literally all of that applies to the SZF, just the SZF will be at max firing range.

When diving a medium, Allies pay either 5 fuel less or 10 more (neglecting MP here) than the SZF. If your medium needs three shots to kill it, you are actually very unlucky.
Conversely, if Axis mediums dive the Calliope and kill it with three shots you're already lucky while still potentially downtrading 15-35 fuel.

This completely neglects offensive capabilities of the rocket arty, but I think most people complain about the survivability.
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Descolata
2 Aug 2020, 16:10 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:00 PMHannibal

When diving a medium, Allies pay either 5 fuel less or 10 more (neglecting MP here) than the SZF. If your medium needs three shots to kill it, you are actually very unlucky.
Conversely, if Axis mediums dive the Calliope and kill it with three shots you're already lucky while still potentially downtrading 15-35 fuel.

This completely neglects offensive capabilities of the rocket arty, but I think most people complain about the survivability.


Just, both Calliope and SZF are very survivable and obnoxious to deal with. One has health, other has range, both don't have clear cost effective counters.

SZF is generally DEEP behind lines, as it has no reason not to be, unless striking behind the lines.
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SkysTheLimit
2 Aug 2020, 16:20 PM
#53
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 15:28 PMVipper

Snip

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 15:52 PMHannibal

Snip

You guys did read the "im fine with 360" part, right?

I've thought the Calliope is bad design for ages. Should be weaker but stock, late-game artillery should not require doctrine for some and be always there for others. Scott is a cool and unique unit, and I would happily trade it in a heartbeat for a weaker calli. Buff scott and move it to doctrine

@Hannibal. 10-15? That 15 only applies to w. Stuka (which can arrive way earlier), it's 30 more fuel than Katy and werfer
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Vipper
2 Aug 2020, 16:26 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:20 PMSkysTheLimit

You guys did read the "im fine with 360" part, right?

I've thought the Calliope is bad design for ages. Should be weaker but stock, late-game artillery should not require doctrine for some and be always there for others

Then we agree, my point was that even if it "justified" for price it can still be problematic especially if it is difficult to counter.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:20 PMSkysTheLimit

@Hannibal. 10-15? That only applies to w. Stuka (which can arrive way earlier), it's 30 more fuel than Katy and werfer

Well when talking about cost one has to keep in mind that Calliope has no tech cost especially when compared to katy and wefer.

Imo it rather difficult to find the correct way to balance the unit (one could start by increasing minimum range) but urban commander adds to problem of Calliope since it offers simply to much. The unit should simply not be in that commander.
:)
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GachiGasm
2 Aug 2020, 16:28 PM
#55
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:10 PMDescolata


Just, both Calliope and SZF are very survivable and obnoxious to deal with. One has health, other has range, both don't have clear cost effective counters.

SZF is generally DEEP behind lines, as it has no reason not to be, unless striking behind the lines.


Any LV ponetially can kill stuka, any tank will one-shot it. If you need to kill it that badly you can even suicide your medium to kill it and it will be 1 to 1 trade in terms of resources.

And here is simple mathematic.

Imagine that lets say PIV trying to kill caliope by rushing it. There is a support in terms of lets say 1 AT gun or other medium.

PIV need 3 hits to kill it, while itself need 4 hits to be killed. Imagine all hits penetrated caliope and and dead, while at the same time something was shooting at PIV, and effectively PIV will leave the fight being 1\2 shot from death, itself. All of this IF all hits penetrated cali and it didnt miss.

If you rush stuka, you effectively need 1 hit to kill it, with mediums. Even with support, if you cant snare\nuke rushing medium you wont save stuka if you miss played or didnt protect the flanks.

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SkysTheLimit
2 Aug 2020, 16:33 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:26 PMVipper

Then we agree, my point was that even if it "justified" for price it can still be problematic especially if it is difficult to counter.

Do we? Do you think the calliope should be stock? Or are you taking that underlined sentence out of context and choosing to isolate it?

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:26 PMVipper

Well when talking about cost one has to keep in mind that Calliope has no tech cost especially when compared to katy and wefer.

Imo it rather difficult to find the correct way to balance the unit (one could start by increasing minimum range) but urban commander adds to problem of Calliope since it offers simply to much. The unit should simply not be in that commander.

I'm well aware of the tech cost vipper, I literally just mentioned that for the walking stuka. Having access to rocket arty EVERY game no matter what > than no tech cost if you happen to pick the commanders. That was my point
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GachiGasm
2 Aug 2020, 16:39 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:33 PMSkysTheLimit

I'm well aware of the tech cost vipper, I literally just mentioned that for the walking stuka. Having access to rocket arty EVERY game no matter what > than no tech cost if you happen to pick the commanders. That was my point


Is it really a problem? As USF you have arguable best pak howi, you have mobile mortar unit like scott, which cant be counter artied. You have access to phosphore to counter bunched up team weapons or blobs.

Ost need werfer to fight allies upgraded inf, Sov need katy to fight okw blobs\ost teamweapons, OKW needs stuka to fight same allied inf and clear defensive possitions.

UKF dont have neither rocket arty or mobile mortar if you dont pick a commander.
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SkysTheLimit
2 Aug 2020, 16:45 PM
#58
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:39 PMGachiGasm


Is it really a problem? As USF you have arguable best pak howi, you have mobile mortar unit like scott, which cant be counter artied. You have access to phosphore to counter bunched up team weapons or blobs.


The pak howy is not a blob counter. It's amazing against team weapons or a static squad, a blob is neither of those things

It's the best "mortar" in the game sure, and it gets deleted easily by.... Guess what... Late-game arty. 5 man crew that needs 3 guys, so one single rocket can de-crew it

I literally just said move the scott to doctrine.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:26 PMVipper

UKF dont have rocket arty or mobile mortar if you dont pick a commander.


Yeah, and that faction is a massive balance issue right now. If you have to significantly buff mainline infantry years after a factions release, that doesn't speak well for it's design...
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Vipper
2 Aug 2020, 16:46 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:33 PMSkysTheLimit

Do we? Do you think the calliope should be stock? Or are you taking that underlined sentence out of context and choosing to isolate it?

I highlight what part is we agree in. "I've thought the Calliope is bad design for ages."

If one wants to make Calliope stock one might end up redesign the USF because things like Scott and Major arty might have to go. Simply adding the Calliope to existing USF roster is not something I would agree

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:33 PMSkysTheLimit

I'm well aware of the tech cost vipper, I literally just mentioned that for the walking stuka. Having access to rocket arty EVERY game no matter what > than no tech cost if you happen to pick the commanders. That was my point


"it's 30 more fuel than Katy and werfer" this is what I responded and I simply pointed out that comparing a unit with high tech cost and one with no cost can be misleading even if it doctrinal. Especially if one keep in mind that the majority of doctrinal vehicles currently have a tech cost.

As I have already pointed out imo the problem has more to do with Urban commander than calliope itself.
:)
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GachiGasm
2 Aug 2020, 16:53 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:45 PMSkysTheLimit

It's the best "mortar" in the game sure, and it gets deleted easily by.... Guess what... Late-game arty. 5 man crew that needs 3 guys, so one single rocket can de-crew it


Aswell as any other inderect unit unit in the game. Also one single rocket can delete it yes, but what other options to counter if its well defended?

I really dont see any reason why caliope needs to be a non-doc unit, why USF "needs" its as a stock unit. Aside from the fact that they dont have stock rocket arty. If the sole reason is this, then you might aswell nerf it to be one-shotable as any other rocket arty in the game or bump its cost by twise the amount it is right now since even with nerf it will be twise as durable as other rocket arty in the game, while having same lvl of power.

Also not to mention that Urban assault, gives yous you access to elite inf + gives upgrades to litteraly all your army and tactival support turns your rifles into terminators with LMG, gives your mobile reinforcement car (+ best AA unit in the game).
Its not like you would pick the commander and only get main use of it by cali.
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