AVRE vs SturmTiger

I still dont see why AVRE need to sit in combat.

Because that's how the unit is designed and balanced for?
Very low speed, turret, very short range, somewhat high armor, does that sound like hit-and-run unit to you?

I was saying that ST sitting in combat more, due to the fact it takes him longer to aim and longer to rotate.

Then you're using the unit completely wrong. You're suppose to drive it, take a shot, preferably at weapon team and back out, if you're doing anything else then that, you're not using the unit properly.

If you take scenarious where you need to drive forwar, shoot and drive back. It would take ST longer to do all of this, meaning it will spend more time potentially under fire.

Its much faster then AVRE and got longer range.
It extremely feels like you're arguing based on completely unintended use of both.

Because that's how the unit is designed and balanced for?

For what patch against what? Or is it suppose to sit in the combat or be a hit and run tank, one exclude the other.

But yeah UKF is such a nicely designed faction and the ideas behind some of the design is pure balance gold

Then you're using the unit completely wrong. You're suppose to drive it, take a shot, preferably at weapon team and back out, if you're doing anything else then that, you're not using the unit properly.

Yeah if only we didnt have excamples where is fails to wipe weapon crews when they are not perfectly in the center.

Its much faster then AVRE and got longer range.

Again tunnel vision. While its faster then AVRE it takes it almost x2 time to reach maximum speed and rotate.

Longer range is only an aurgument when you are ambushing something. In offence this longer range wont change much, since against someone who is paying attention you need to take into consideration delay before the shot.

Only in a perfect scenario, where you will move ST at the perfect angle so it wont take time to rotate, and there will be no spotting units and crews wont be moving, then it might have a difference

So in general you want to move close at about same 30-35 to make a somewhat effective shot.

Should be noted that it's advisable with the ST to aim behind the target because of aim time and shots falling short so the 5m range advantage is iffy at best.

Yeah if only we didnt have excamples where is fails to wipe weapon crews when they are not perfectly in the center.

What does this have to do with hit and run tactics?
This is a question of the AoE profile, not of the tactics how to use a unit

Again tunnel vision. While its faster then AVRE it takes it almost x2 time to reach maximum speed and rotate.

Longer range is only an aurgument when you are ambushing something. In offence this longer range wont change much, since against someone who is paying attention you need to take into consideration delay before the shot. So in general you want to move close at about same 30-35 to make a somewhat effective shot.

Rotation should not matter when attacking, the slow rotation rate is there to make it more vulnerable to flanks. Your ST is already perfectly aligned with it's target before you drive in.
And also you should take a max range shot if possible. Scatter is almost non existent with both units, so going closer does not help too much. The further you move in, the more clear it becomes to your opponent what you are going to target. Max range shots help by reducing the time that your opponent has to react in this case. If he only has 1 second or 2 before you issue the shooting command, then you bring the whole delay down to ~5 seconds (1-2 second popping in of ST, 3 second shot delay, maybe a second flight time). If you close in you will lose >2 seconds just by driving, but gain only maybe half a second projectile flight time. You also expose yourself more and spend more time in repairs.

I agree that the ST could use a minor buff, in my eyes as already stated a defensive one, but I also think that you are using the unit wrong judging by what you have written.

I agree that the ST could use a minor buff, in my eyes as already stated a defensive one, but I also think that you are using the unit wrong judging by what you have written.

Nah I'm using it defensively just like you say. My point is its still has too many gimmics, very map dependant and its a common situation where you should have had wiped something, but it didnt. And additional 40 AOE damage and 5 more range and all other stuff, doesnt really cover all other disadvantages it has.

In comparasent, AVRE is just much more plesent and easy to use and can be used effectively in both defence and offence just as good, for the same timings and cost.

Nah I'm using it defensively just like you say. My point is its still has too many gimmics, very map dependant and its a common situation where you should have had wiped something, but it didnt. And additional 40 AOE damage and 5 more range and all other stuff, doesnt really cover all other disadvantages it has.

In comparasent, AVRE is just much more plesent and easy to use and can be used effectively in both defence and offence just as good, for the same timings and cost.

I am not saying use it defensively, it's actually better on offense, because there your chances are higher to wipe a static MG or ATG.

I agree though that the AVRE is nicer to use. However I think this mostly comes down to the turret and the long pack up times of Axis MGs. To the first point: Once your ST got spotted too early, you have to pull it back. There is no way to target a different squad, since this means rotation and exposing the weak rear armor. AVRE can sit on the spot and threaten other units by just rotating the turret. The other minor issues are team weapons are primary targets, but both 50 cal and Maxim can run away quicker than MG42 or MG34 could. Plus other things like the reload etc.

I would not counter balance this by increasing the STs AoE though, the AoE is fine if not even too good for the current state of the game. I'd start with a smoke call in ability for it, then we could re evaluate and see if it needs other changes. Offensive changes should be done only by reload or even more indirect factors like speed/rotation.

Avre is OP, because it is too easy to use.

Sturmtiger is an useless unit. Making it a weaker version but give it more range would make if usefull. Even current version is unable to fuk most squats, so where it the problem?

Why not lower its HP but increase its frontal armor? Making it something funny, not OP.

The Avre is fine because it's doing what it's supposed to. It looks OP because it's being compared to a hunk of dog shit. Both of these units trade constant pressure for high impact strikes. They both need to reward hitting to justify their cost. Avre is doing this, ST is not. This is not an issue with the avre it is an issue with the ST. compare to the likes of kv-2, isu and to a lesser extent even the Scott, or 105 Sherman. These units justify their less reliable output by having follow up shots. This model doesn't work with the Avre and ST. the problem with the ST is similar to the issue with the Brummbär. Knocking of range on units that need range due to the inability to track is devistating. There is a reason units that only point in one direction shoot further than the enemy can see. They are trash if they can't.

Either give the ST more range or at least give it back world piercing so it can actually hit things besides the ground when it does manage to find a target and get through its 20 minute aim time without the enemy moving.

AVRE mortar is affected by terrain while the Sturmtiger rocket is not.

The Sturmtiger is much more reliable in that it won't hit a piece of terrain or be blocked by a broken tank.

Both tanks are niche nuke tanks with their own specialities. I don't think any changes should be made. If anything, I wouldn't mind if they were removed from the game because instant squad wipes are anti-fun.

Both tank have cancerous gameplay in long run, able to wipe vetted infantry like nothing. I'm with Creativename, if it can't be balance, it is better to nerf both into the ground.

AVRE mortar is affected by terrain while the Sturmtiger rocket is not.

The Sturmtiger is much more reliable in that it won't hit a piece of terrain or be blocked by a broken tank.

Actually in live version it will. Check it out