Still, ST gets 6 additional meters of max AoE which does 43,75 damage and therefore kills every model that is half health. As I said, it is hard to tell which unit is better just looking at the values alone, but saying that the ST's AoE profile would be straight up worse than the one of the AVRE is plainly wrong.
Well taking into a consideration pure wiping potential AVRE is better, this 43 damage is nice, but its again dependant on your opponent lack of awareness, if he brings half-hp squads to the fight its kinda his missplay which is punishiable not only by ST but by pretty much any AOE unit in the game.
a player which spam B4 or mobile arty is more problematic in balance and BS cancer than one Sturmtiger which could shot every 1min above 90 range. 3 - 4 B4 or priests are more bs and cancer than one ST. and caliope is what u describe there...and even this unit can be spamed into popcap! Why is ok for allies to have such units...while it would be OP and cheesy for axis? Why?
I disagree with you there since your examples are vastly exaggerated and the conclusion is made up without backup, but to be honest I will also stop to argue since it does not seem to have any use.
Well taking into a consideration pure wiping potential AVRE is better, this 43 damage is nice, but its again dependant on your opponent lack of awareness, if he brings half-hp squads to the fight its kinda his missplay which is punishiable not only by ST but by pretty much any AOE unit in the game.
Well yes, but a squad will always take some damage in a fight, either before or after the ST hits.
It also helps more against blobs/clumps and moving targets where aiming is more difficult (although this again is counteracted by ST's 3 second delay). Also the AoE area makes it harder to dodge even if the infantry is microed well, while an AVRE shell is more "hit or miss" (whereas miss is probably that you only get 20-30% health damage instead of 30-100%).
My point is just that it is hard to really assess what is more valuable.
Overall I'd say that he ST has the better AoE design though: Less wiping potential and larger AoE. Basically the treatment many units got to tone down random wipes. The AoE profile is also more intuitive. With the AVRE it can happen that one full health model dies due to the huge explosion, while the model 1 meter away does not even get scratched. The AoE should be flattened at the edges like the ST's.
Btw It might be false but doesnt suppression provide damage reductions or defence of some sort? Because if it is then AOE of ST wont do its full damage.
Btw It might be false but doesnt suppression provide damage reductions or defence of some sort? Because if it is then AOE of ST wont do its full damage.
Afaik it provides an RA buff, someone else has to chip in for the exact numbers though because I have no idea on those.
AoE should be unaffected, but even if not it would still depend which effect is applied first.
120mm has 100 range. Make Sturmtiger a late-game weapon, a simply troll vehicle. Give it longer reload and worse acc. at longrange.
Don't see where it should be more OP than B4 or other mobile Arty.
Not sure what a mortar has to do with a ST.
B4 is static and get's 1 shot by offmap. B4 is the type of unit that should never be good meta wise.
Other mobile artillery don't nuke vehicles off the map.
B4 is static and get's 1 shot by offmap. B4 is the type of unit that should never be good meta wise.
Other mobile artillery don't nuke vehicles off the map.
a. Its about the range.
b. most allii-call-is also one-shot Tigers, but Sturmtigers speed can be lowerd too. Don't forget it is immobile for reload.
It can be changed to work like that, and it would be a much more interesting unit.
b. most allii-call-is also one-shot Tigers, but Sturmtigers speed can be lowerd too. Don't forget it is immobile for reload.
It can be changed to work like that, and it would be a much more interesting unit.
Regardless of the opinion on your suggestion, I think the implementation is impossible.
Wasn't it deemed impossible to give the ST a steeper firing arch? I think someone in the forums mentioned this, but maybe that's false information.
Apart from that the shells from the AVRE and ST sometimes seem to collide with flies and leafs on the battlefield and explode if they touch the tiniest obstacle. Unless the arch becomes super steep, I think giving it 90 range could make it effectively useless since the rocket would just collide with something on the way.
There is nothing that can replace it. Not within the scope of your argument (that the unit should synergise with other the other Elite Armor abilities).
And it can't be rebalanced within realistic terms either. It has gotten a lot of QoL buffs lately and it's good enough for casual play now. There's not much more that can be done within Relic's current scope of no major changes. Similar to a unit like the B4, it will just never be competitive due to its nature.
This answer raises several concerns.
Clearly the issue of the status quo inconsistencies between AVRE and Sturmtiger balance treatment has been acknowledged by the balance team and in addition players of all skill levels have expressed discontent for the current situation. (So far I've seen 0 rational explanations for why one of the two units in identical roles is a pile of hot garbage compared to the other.)
Several fact based and easily verifiable claims have been made in this thread. These include but are not limited to:
1. AVRE reload timer oversight which makes AVRE reload cooldown start before it has even fired giving it unfair advantage.
2. The absolutely butchered AoE of the Sturmtiger makes it regularly fail to wipe squads even on 100% accurate direct hits. Especially 6 man soviet teams regularly survive a pinpoint rocket hit whereas AVRE's AoE guarantees much more reliable squad wipes even at the edges of the explosion. In addition the smaller axis squad sizes don't exactly help with them surviving but thats an issue for another day.
3. The patch notes clearly state that the reason behind the Sturmtiger adjustments was to prevent easy full squad wipes. Meanwhile collective amnesia must have occurred since AVRE to this day does the exactly same thing and that seems to be perfectly fine while AVRE's veterancy is 100% offensive instead of giving the unit gimmick vet 1 mechanics to compensate for its unreliability in its primary role.
4. Veterancy and power level disparity. As I previously mentioned the AVRE gets its power level spike at vet 1 while Sturmtiger only get's it at vet 3. Also the automatic free crit repair of the AVRE at vet 3 makes it considerably less risky to use.
5. Several smaller adjustments have been suggested in this thread and in the past that would make these units to perform in a role that would still be relevant and less cancerous. (For example a small time penalty if an AVRE shot is cancelled before firing. That would reduce the forced retreats by Axis players assuming AVRE is about to fire - something something no firing animation for a 1 shot wipe (similar to the B4 firing time penalty if the shot is cancelled mid firing animation)
6. The recent 2v2 tourney and facts available make it obvious that an AVRE is a very potent unit. So far no justification has been provided why the Sturmtiger performing in an identical role is irredeemable and is deemed to be worthy only for casual play.
So far none of these points have been properly addressed. (facts don't care about feelings)
Neither me nor the community cannot demand the balance team to provide an explanation to the status quo but the radio silence / avoiding the facts of the matter raises several theories that can be supported with the information that is currently available.
1. At one point in time the scope (tm) has failed to account for the bigger picture focusing solely on readjusting the Sturmtiger while letting the AVRE escape the nerf hammer (readjustment hammer) scot-free.
2. Double standards have been used when adjusting the Sturmtiger.
3. The community sentiment (discontent for the status quo) is not taken into account sufficiently in the balance changes. This creates concerns that balance changes are driven by feels instead of facts and community sentiment.
I hope this comment is not regarded as hostile since all the issues listed are based on facts. I can however understand why the seeming radio silence might lead to more negative backlash from the community since people might think legitimate concerns are being outright ignored.
So also ISU is OP as fu*k? Way higher fire-rate, and also long-range.
A long-range Sturmtiger would be like a call-in ability, which can be destroyed.
The isu, last I checked anyways only has 70 range. It used to have 100 way back but it was reduced because apparently highly armoured and mobile units with boat loads of health being able to fire 2. 5 times the range of normal tanks is pretty strong
Picture this: calliope, like it was at launch with the same health and armour as a Sherman. But with MORE health and MORE armour and instead of saturating an area, it drops a nuke on it.
Or how about this:a b4 but instead of being able to be off map deleted in a second.... Well it can't be. And instead of being able to get a cheeky flanking squad of the cheapest unit you can muster to get up on it and wipe its vet, you need a full on tank and 6 shots, maybe more because odds are some will bounce...
Huge durability, mobility, potentially devistating payload extreme range. Recipe for poor balance.
Being able to nuke an su85/firefly from 1.5 their own range while also being able to outlast them? Please think this through....
The isu, last I checked anyways only has 70 range. It used to have 100 way back but it was reduced because apparently highly armoured and mobile units with boat loads of health being able to fire 2. 5 times the range of normal tanks is pretty strong
Picture this: calliope, like it was at launch with the same health and armour as a Sherman. But with MORE health and MORE armour and instead of saturating an area, it drops a nuke on it.
Or how about this:a b4 but instead of being able to be off map deleted in a second.... Well it can't be. And instead of being able to get a cheeky flanking squad of the cheapest unit you can muster to get up on it and wipe its vet, you need a full on tank and 6 shots, maybe more because odds are some will bounce...
Huge durability, mobility, potentially devistating payload extreme range. Recipe for poor balance.
Being able to nuke an su85/firefly from 1.5 their own range while also being able to outlast them? Please think this through....
Yeah, probably not going to work. But it's also the perfect way to throw a game right now
The isu, last I checked anyways only has 70 range. It used to have 100 way back but it was reduced because apparently highly armoured and mobile units with boat loads of health being able to fire 2. 5 times the range of normal tanks is pretty strong
Picture this: calliope, like it was at launch with the same health and armour as a Sherman. But with MORE health and MORE armour and instead of saturating an area, it drops a nuke on it.
Or how about this:a b4 but instead of being able to be off map deleted in a second.... Well it can't be. And instead of being able to get a cheeky flanking squad of the cheapest unit you can muster to get up on it and wipe its vet, you need a full on tank and 6 shots, maybe more because odds are some will bounce...
Huge durability, mobility, potentially devistating payload extreme range. Recipe for poor balance.
Being able to nuke an su85/firefly from 1.5 their own range while also being able to outlast them? Please think this through....
That is correct, but I never said that is stays untouched. It would need many nerfs to work that way, and yes I als said, that it can have different ranges.
That is correct, but I never said that is stays untouched. It would need many nerfs to work that way, and yes I als said, that it can have different ranges.
So yuu want a complete redesign... I don't feel that's necessary. I especially do not think that making it into a tiger durability sexton mounting a b4 is the way to go. It certainly shouldn't be this much in discussion.
It basicly needs it last round of nerfs undone or at least part undone. At least return the world piercing removal so that it can be used without fucking detonating on fence posts.
So yuu want a complete redesign... I don't feel that's necessary. I especially do not think that making it into a tiger durability sexton mounting a b4 is the way to go. It certainly shouldn't be this much in discussion.
It basicly needs it last round of nerfs undone or at least part undone. At least return the world piercing removal so that it can be used without fucking detonating on fence posts.
Mate... I never said it needs B4 stats... it was an anekdote.
1st. Nerf Avre, it is op as fu*k.
2nd. redesign Sturmtiger into an useful middle-range arty, like Calliope but with one shell like (and NOT same) to B4 with weaker stats.
All over, sturmtiger could get less speed, rotation, reload and acc. So it becomes like a mobile B4 (ps: not same)
Mate... I never said it needs B4 stats... it was an anekdote.
1st. Nerf Avre, it is op as fu*k.
2nd. redesign Sturmtiger into an useful middle-range arty, like Calliope but with one shell like (and NOT same) to B4 with weaker stats.
All over, sturmtiger could get less speed, rotation, reload and acc. So it becomes like a mobile B4 (ps: not same)
Avre is fine its the ST that is lacking. St just needs some of its neutering undone. We put back one nut and at call it that. Even if it had the same range it does now but say pierced the world at least the shells would go where they are wanted AND crafty players could still ambush. It doesn't need an overhaul, we just need to accept that that patch designed to make it useless worked too well.
Avre is fine its the ST that is lacking. St just needs some of its neutering undone. We put back one nut and at call it that. Even if it had the same range it does now but say pierced the world at least the shells would go where they are wanted AND crafty players could still ambush. It doesn't need an overhaul, we just need to accept that that patch designed to make it useless worked too well.
Avre is OP, because it is too easy to use.
Sturmtiger is an useless unit. Making it a weaker version but give it more range would make if usefull. Even current version is unable to fuk most squats, so where it the problem?
Why not lower its HP but increase its frontal armor? Making it something funny, not OP.
(similar to the B4 firing time penalty if the shot is cancelled mid firing animation) 
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