Nerf spec ops flares

Make a thread about the T70 and we will talk about the T70 until then, this is about flares and although it has already been said:

"Just because something else is OP doesnt mean this should be"

That's just another example to help you understand that "OP" is just what you think but not necessary a bad thing in a game design, and the role and purpose of flares are quite clear and nerfing/removing them would just destroy the whole structure of the OKW and Axis side in teamgames.

But I think it might be easier to just escape the whole debate and crying out it is "OP" because it can't be counter (like most of the non-plane capabilities?) and can be deployed on the whole map (yeah I suppose commander capabilities are meant to be passiv camo and not influence the game whasoever). And as you pointed out, it has been here for a long time, and claiming suddently that it is OP without even stating a single number seems rather bad in a balance perpesctive, but feel free to continue.

Nothing proved that it is OP, and if so, maybe it's for the greater good like the T-70.

Make a thread about the t70. Stop going offtopic

The flares are uncounterable. That's a problem. That's it. There's absolutely no reason for them to be uncounterable

No one is "suddenly claiming" anything, people have been saying this is broken for YEARS. Just because you didn't see the comments doesn't mean they werent there....

Make a thread about the t70. Stop going offtopic

The flares are uncounterable. That's a problem. That's it. There's absolutely no reason for them to be uncounterable

No one is "suddenly claiming" anything, people have been saying this is broken for YEARS. Just because you didn't see the comments doesn't mean they werent there....

As I said it was an example to understand that "OP" is what you think but not necessary a bad thing from a game desigh perspective.

And if we were listening to people claiming whatever is OP for years, the MG-42 would fire apple, Jagtiger would be a bigger kubel and Riflemen would have to fight with sword, so yes, "claiming for years" that something is OP isn't necessary the truth.

Flares are uncounterable like every non-planes capabilities, and even with planes some might not fall (IL-2 bomb drop for the most recent similar post), so that's not really what makes something "OP".

So you can keep repeating to yourself a lie thousands of times, it won't turn into a truth.

Sovjet and Brit have that flare too.

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And if we were listening to people claiming whatever is OP for years, the MG-42 would fire apple, Jagtiger would be a bigger kubel and Riflemen would have to fight with sword, so yes, "claiming for years" that something is OP isn't necessary the truth.

I didn't say that made it the truth. You said people were "suddenly complaining about it". That's factually incorrect, people have been complaining about it for a while. That's all I'm saying

Flares are uncounterable like every non-planes capabilities, and even with planes some might not fall (IL-2 bomb drop for the most recent similar post), so that's not really what makes something "OP".

No they are not the same. The IL2 requires vision to call it in, the flares do not because they are providing the vision. They are not the same at all. Furthermore the IL2 bomb has 3 red flares on the ground warning you your about to get hit

So you can keep repeating to yourself a lie thousands of times, it won't turn into a truth.

Seriously dude? Read the thread you're in the small minority of people who think it's fair and balanced. You have to be absursly biased to think this ability is fine

Your argument is "your opinion is a lie, mine is correct". Lol okay buddy

As I said it was an example to understand that "OP" is what you think but not necessary a bad thing from a game desigh perspective.

And if we were listening to people claiming whatever is OP for years, the MG-42 would fire apple, Jagtiger would be a bigger kubel and Riflemen would have to fight with sword, so yes, "claiming for years" that something is OP isn't necessary the truth.

Flares are uncounterable like every non-planes capabilities, and even with planes some might not fall (IL-2 bomb drop for the most recent similar post), so that's not really what makes something "OP".

So you can keep repeating to yourself a lie thousands of times, it won't turn into a truth.

""claiming for years" that something is OP isn't necessary the truth."

It generally is:

Show Spoiler

"Flares are uncounterable like every non-planes capabilities"

These abilities are usually expensive, and or easy enough to dodge, you can't spam them constantly. Remember when UKF command vehicle had free recon via a plane? That was incredibly OP, do you know why? Because it was free and had a stupidly short cool down which led to near constant vision, and depsite the fact the plane could be shot down, it was nerfed and added a muni cost.

Flares however, cheap, uncounterable, last for a long time and can be spammed, there is nothing you can do to avoid them, nothing. You can move off from that side of the map, sure but then flares will just go to where you moved. There is no risk only reward and that is why it is OP.

Rifle flares/Mortar flares you at least risk getting units near to the area, flares you have to plant them, flares on the points (notice how noone says that is OP anymore? Yet before the nerf it was just OP) Its because they need to be manually planted, you need to activley use a squad to plant the flares that can then be countered by a mine sweeper.

Having something OP is not good games design, its the complete opposite, you can have power but you need weaknesses, take the KT, heavy, hard hitting, high armour but slow to move and to trun the turret and is easily flanked. If you made it the same speed as a cromwell and with the same turret rotation, are you saying that would be good games design too? Because this is certainly what your opinion on games design comes across as...

I didn't say that made it the truth. You said people were "suddenly complaining about it". That's factually incorrect, people have been complaining about it for a while. That's all I'm saying



No they are not the same. The IL2 requires vision to call it in, the flares do not because they are providing the vision. They are not the same at all. Furthermore the IL2 bomb has 3 red flares on the ground warning you your about to get hit



Seriously dude? Read the thread you're in the small minority of people who think it's fair and balanced. You have to be absursly biased to think this ability is fine

It was just an example of a Call-in that can't die, nothing more, That's all i'm saying.

Yes I hope an "IL-2 Bomb strike" and a "recon flare" doesn't work the same, seems rather obvious.

And I think I don't have to give any example to convince you that saying the majority always say the truth is totaly bullshit.

And I think I don't have to give any example to convince you that saying the majority always say the truth is totaly bullshit.

No one said the majority always says the truth. But it's not just a majority it's a majority who have provided their reasoning right here for you to see

And a majority is far better than one person saying, "I'm right, you're wrong, trust me". You haven't provided any legit response to why their recon should be uncounterable. Just make it a recon plane like everyone else. Same goes for brit early warning, it should have counterplay

It was just an example of a Call-in that can't die, nothing more, That's all i'm saying.

Okay but the critical difference is you still need to spot for the Il2. With a unit. Or with a recon plane..... That can be shot down. Do you see the difference?

snip

I will copy paste to save me some time:

The OKW doesn't have any scout units or other capabilities to scout (no sniper/222/T-70/M-20 and the stuka smoke strafe isn't a proper reco). The IR-HT got nerfed which was needed but is still a big impact on a core unit of the OKW, if you see more flares it is because that's the only remaining option for the OKW and the whole axis side.

Those flares are critical for the OKW and that's why they are criticizes. To counter the arty dominance of the Allies, flares are needed. To use properly the panzerwerfer, you need those flares. Both axis rocket arty are "precise strike" and not "wiping area machine".

Plus most of the "meta" Ostheer commander doesn't have reco plane, nerfing flares will just make the need of Elephant+Scope even more present.

So instead of crying out an OP ability which lasted for a decade (exactly like the T-70 is to the SU) and which is part of every teamgames tactics, try to give them first other viable options and see if it remain a must-have ability.

Now why did I took the example of the T-70?

The T-70 is arguably the best light vehicule and the latest, it is versatile and so gives a lot of flexibility, hence some argued in the past that it is "OP". But the power of the T-70 what due to the role it has to fulfill within the tech of the SU and without it the whole 1vs1 SU would have become useless.

The idea is exactly the same with flares for all the reasons stated before, it is arguably strong like the T-70 but also fulfill a major role for the OKW and the whole axis side in teamgames. And due to its role, it seems OP.

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You are either ignoring everything thats been said or trolling. However, since you are so obsessed with the T70, I will bite:

T70 can be snared and killed by AT weapons, they are expensive in the early game and cannot be spammed reliably due to the counters on the field. Flares, cannot be countered, are spamable (more so in team games) and are cheap, also, they can not be countered.

See what makes it OP? I made it easy for you. They can not be countered.

No one said the majority always says the truth. But it's not just a majority it's a majority who have provided their reasoning right here for you to see

And a majority is far better than one person saying, "I'm right, you're wrong, trust me". You haven't provided any legit response to why their recon should be uncounterable. Just make it a recon plane like everyone else. Same goes for brit early warning, it should have counterplay


Okay but the critical difference is you still need to spot for the Il2. With a unit. Or with a recon plane..... That can be shot down. Do you see the difference?

Exactly, this majority provided reasons, not proofs, numbers or whatever reflexion over the effects changing this ability would have, and so it seems legitimate to question it.

One is meant for reco and the other for destruction, it feels logic.

You are either ignoring everything thats been said or trolling. However, since you are so obsessed with the T70, I will bite:

T70 can be snared and killed by AT weapons, they are expensive in the early game and cannot be spammed reliably due to the counters on the field. Flares, cannot be countered, are spamable (more so in team games) and are cheap, also, they can not be countered.

See what makes it OP? I made it easy for you. They can not be countered.

I explained exactly why I took the T-70 for example: its role and purpose among a techtree which justify its power. A strict comparison between flares and T-70 is stupid.

I explained exactly why I took the T-70 for example: its role and purpose among a techtree which justify its power. A strict comparison between flares and T-70 is stupid.

So stop doing it.

So stop doing it.

It was not a strict comparison, I demarcated exactly everything to make it easier for you.

Exactly, this majority provided reasons, not proofs, numbers or whatever reflexion over the effects changing this ability would have, and so it seems legitimate to question it.

They provided much more than you have. You haven't provided anything at all

One is meant for reco and the other for destruction, it feels logic.

What are you trying to say? It makes no sense to compare those abilities and it only works against your point, as I just showed you

Can you answer the question? Why does it need to be uncounterable? Why can't we just replace it with a recon plane?

Sovjet and Brit have that flare too.

Brits have no control where their flares go.
Soviets do not have unlimited range flares, which again, OKW got sov version too on PFs.

Nothing proved that it is OP, and if so, maybe it's for the greater good like the T-70.

And as every plane can be shot down, all faction relying on it have other option to not be ultra dependant (often non doctrinal). OKW now only has those flare and are so important that it justify taking the only commander who has it. So as I stated, nothing proves that it is OP, but everything point out that it has an important place in the OKW and teamgames.

Flares are strong and it must be considering the role it has to fulfill.

I agree okw should get some form of non doc recon. Since it's late war Germany if suggest some sort of half track maybe. Obviously we don't want ANOTHER AT option for okw so I'm not sure which halftrack variant to use. It's too bad the Germans never just like... Strapped a search light to a halftrack because that would be perfect! Granted we would have to use existing models since they armt making anymore... Perhaps we could repurpose the uhu. It's close enough to a halftrack with a searchlight strapped to it that I think we could pull it off with a bit of imagination and maybe a crafty skin? Any modders able to lete know if we could repurpose the halftrack with the spot light on the back of it to act as a scouting unit? I'm thinking something like a halftrack with a searchlight strapped to it. I know it's probably a stretch and starting to get into fantasy but I really think a halftrack with a search light on it would not only be really cool but would also be a great platform for a scouting unit. It would also fill the role of a scouting unit and give a good, new and out of the box approach so the only faction with a halftrack with a literal fucking spotlight on it and make it a scouting unit. Like one would expect from a half track with a search light on it.

It really is too bad though that okw lacks anything like a halftrack with a search light attached to it and instead of to rely on their 210mp shared vet cars map hax and the light tank hunter with the most flexible vet ability in the game and also the jp4s vet to scout. Why RELIC? WHY!?!!? WHY COULDN'T YOU JUST STEP INTO FANTASY A LITTLE BIT AND GIBE US A HALFTRACK WITH A SEARCHLIGHT STRAPPED TO IT! WHYYYUYY!!!!?!?!

[Some voodoo about halftraks]

Maybe move the (now reduced cost to compensate for unit cost gate) anywhere flare to this vehicle? Semi-serious suggestion.

Maybe move the (now reduced cost to compensate for unit cost gate) anywhere flare to this vehicle? Semi-serious suggestion.

Actually there is mod by sneakeyes somewhere that makes IRHT that work in such a manner (although it does not launch flares)

Actually there is mod by sneakeyes somewhere that makes IRHT that work in such a manner (although it does not launch flares)

Hmmm......while I'm unconvinced of the 'OPness' of the flares, it might incentivise a little used unit. But I'm not a modder and am throwing out potential ideas.