Given that it now has only 5 less range than other AT guns, has 5 men to prevent being wiped constantly by tank shells, and has camo at vet1, there's no reason the rak still has to have retreat.
Having retreat on an AT gun is just a poor mechanic because unlike infantry squads or machine guns, it doesn't have to stay around on the field very long to do a significant amount of damage, especially when you have multiple and can get a volley or two off and retreat at 4-5 men still. It's too hard to actually counter with infantry the same way you can force any other AT gun off because of this; sure you'll get it to retreat but it can still walk right up to the frontline in a way that would be an absolute death sentence for any other AT gun, basically infantry don't zone it out like they should.
Raketenwerfers should not have retreat anymore.
3 Jul 2020, 21:36 PM
#1
Posts: 3053
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3 Jul 2020, 21:39 PM
#2
Posts: 600
its a panzershrek on wheels
3 Jul 2020, 21:53 PM
#3
Posts: 3053
its a panzershrek on wheels
First of all, great contribution bud.
Good thing it has 25 more range, does 60 more damage, and has more pen than a schreck.
If you want a panzerschreck on wheels, it could have 100 damage, worse pen, and 35 range if you want.
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3 Jul 2020, 22:01 PM
#4
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
People really need to stop with this Raketenwerfer OP stuff.
I make a suggestion:
Make the Raketenwerfer a copy-paste of the current USF M1 AT-gun and then make the USF M1 a copy of the Raketenwerfer.
Around 70 range and self spotting with vet, super ROF, best cone of fire best penetration with HVAP and cheapest cost of all AT-guns is somehow fine but the Raketenwerfer is OP? Holy shit.
To repeat this for the 10th time now:
- Raketenwerfer still has less range than normal AT-guns,
- It still has a horrible retreat animation that makes all squad members clump up inviting grenades or tanks to wipe it
- It still has no gun shield
- It still hits the ground more often because it has a smaller chance of landing scatter hits because of low position of gun.
- It still has less penetration and longer reload than Pak40, 6 pounder and M1 without HVAP
If you want to remove retreat from the Raketenwerfer it would require a lot of other buffs to make it good enough.
I make a suggestion:
Make the Raketenwerfer a copy-paste of the current USF M1 AT-gun and then make the USF M1 a copy of the Raketenwerfer.
Around 70 range and self spotting with vet, super ROF, best cone of fire best penetration with HVAP and cheapest cost of all AT-guns is somehow fine but the Raketenwerfer is OP? Holy shit.
To repeat this for the 10th time now:
- Raketenwerfer still has less range than normal AT-guns,
- It still has a horrible retreat animation that makes all squad members clump up inviting grenades or tanks to wipe it
- It still has no gun shield
- It still hits the ground more often because it has a smaller chance of landing scatter hits because of low position of gun.
- It still has less penetration and longer reload than Pak40, 6 pounder and M1 without HVAP
If you want to remove retreat from the Raketenwerfer it would require a lot of other buffs to make it good enough.
3 Jul 2020, 22:23 PM
#5
Posts: 956
Here we go again..... Raketen is OP? Come on. I haven't even started drinking yet and I saw this!
20 more range (55 vs 35), 40 more damage (160 vs 120) and is an AT gun that must be set up to fire.
Well if that's the argument why not just bring back schreckvolks?
I will -gladly-stealtake the 6-pounder AT gun and delete some sucker in an M4 derivative because the raketen is by far the worst AT gun in the game. Not counting the M-42 as that's a meme unit. I go out of my way to steal Allied AT guns rather than buy a second Raketen if possible because I'm tired of losing both in a single go.
Don't get me started on HE shells one shotting the thing or pressing T leading to -instantly- clumping up everyone before the gun even starts moving.
First of all, great contribution bud.
Good thing it has 25 more range, does 60 more damage, and has more pen than a schreck.
If you want a panzerschreck on wheels, it could have 100 damage, worse pen, and 35 range if you want.
20 more range (55 vs 35), 40 more damage (160 vs 120) and is an AT gun that must be set up to fire.
Well if that's the argument why not just bring back schreckvolks?
I will -gladly-
Don't get me started on HE shells one shotting the thing or pressing T leading to -instantly- clumping up everyone before the gun even starts moving.
For Italy! We have outfoxed the enemy once more!
3 Jul 2020, 23:41 PM
#6
Posts: 2358
Raketen is OP when the red units have it.
Now if SU can steal one is perfectly fine.
I dislike threads asking to remove every single unique feature of units between factions.
Its been a while since i saw a "USF should not have vehicles crews" or "SU-85 selfspot is OP"
Now if SU can steal one is perfectly fine.
I dislike threads asking to remove every single unique feature of units between factions.
Its been a while since i saw a "USF should not have vehicles crews" or "SU-85 selfspot is OP"
4 Jul 2020, 07:55 AM
#7
Posts: 486
Standard response: make it have 1.25 RA and problem is solved.
4 Jul 2020, 09:44 AM
#8
Posts: 1003
Raketen is OP when the red units have it.
Now if SU can steal one is perfectly fine.
I dislike threads asking to remove every single unique feature of units between factions.
Its been a while since i saw a "USF should not have vehicles crews" or "SU-85 selfspot is OP"
All units have some weakness, Raketen have only benefits.
And many units lost they unique features (two man soviet sniper squad, range of 120mm mortar, etc.)
PS: Raketen miss "U" reverse move (all AT guns/vehicles have it).
I want to have the same chance, to win for each side.
4 Jul 2020, 10:26 AM
#9
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
All units have some weakness, Raketen have only benefits.
- Less range than any other AT-gun
- no gun-shield
- worse ROF and penetration than Pak40 and 6 pounder,
- much worse ROF than USF M1 ATG and also less penetration than the HVAP rounds of the M1
- bad retreat animation that leads to wipes
- less chance of scatter hits because of low proximity to ground
So NO not only benefits.
4 Jul 2020, 10:48 AM
#10
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
- Less range than any other AT-gun
- no gun-shield
- worse ROF and penetration than Pak40 and 6 pounder,
- much worse ROF than USF M1 ATG and also less penetration than the HVAP rounds of the M1
- bad retreat animation that leads to wipes
- less chance of scatter hits because of low proximity to ground
So NO not only benefits.
- more crew members then PaK40, 6 pounder and 57mil
- more pen then 57mil, on pair with ZiS, but shoots faster then ZiS
- can retreat, meaning it has much higher chance to preserve vet then any other ATG
- stock camo
- can be played aggressively because retreat allows to overextend without being punished for it
- does not require ANY tech
- cheap
The benefits most certainly do have some heavy weight and retreat is without a question biggest one allowing for much more mistakes then other ATGs.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
4 Jul 2020, 10:52 AM
#11
Posts: 1003
- Less range than any other AT-gun
- no gun-shield
- worse ROF and penetration than Pak40 and 6 pounder,
- much worse ROF than USF M1 ATG and also less penetration than the HVAP rounds of the M1
- bad retreat animation that leads to wipes
- less chance of scatter hits because of low proximity to ground
So NO not only benefits.
Raketen need faster move and response, but dont need retreat.
I want to have the same chance, to win for each side.
4 Jul 2020, 11:11 AM
#12
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Since Rak is OP why not simply make it doctrinal and give OKW pak40. Then everyone will be happy.
4 Jul 2020, 12:05 PM
#13
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
- Less range than any other AT-gun
- no gun-shield
- worse ROF and penetration than Pak40 and 6 pounder,
- much worse ROF than USF M1 ATG and also less penetration than the HVAP rounds of the M1
- bad retreat animation that leads to wipes
- less chance of scatter hits because of low proximity to ground
So NO not only benefits.
Slight corrections:
- The Raketenwerfer fires as fast as the PaK40 and 6Pdr. The 57mm fires about half a second faster (which is 10-15% better, but not as much as you make it out to be) and the Zis a second slower.
- penetration is enough to pen all Allied stock vehicles with guarantee except for Comet and Churchill
- quite a bit cheaper than most other ATGs
Stat wise the Raketenwerfer is in a very good spot. The quirks of the unit are unfortunately probably unsolvable
4 Jul 2020, 13:47 PM
#14
Posts: 143
Someone has the correct stats for raketens time to shoot? Because i do feel like i takes years to deliver atleast one shot before a tank starts rolling over it
4 Jul 2020, 14:01 PM
#15
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
Someone has the correct stats for raketens time to shoot? Because i do feel like i takes years to deliver atleast one shot before a tank starts rolling over it
The initial shot can have a lot to do with the horizontal tracking speed. Usual ready aim times for vehicles is 0,125 seconds, not sure about ATGs. The time for the first shot really depends on the situation, hard to make a generalized value.
Apart from that:
avg reload: 4,05
ready aim: 0,125
wind_down: 0,5
Together with the correction value for used stats it should be a total reload time of 5,05 seconds.
4 Jul 2020, 14:07 PM
#16
Posts: 149
Remember when the Rak was a piece of crap that no one used and in response, Fusiliers were the only decent AT weapon OKW had early game?
Raks are really good as light vehicle busters. They work OK as medium tank busters in pairs.
It's in a good spot. Take away the retreat function and its quirks, its needs to have a lightning fast reset and movement.
I'm all for having the US AT gun or the Zis instead. Way more useful than the Rak.
Raks are really good as light vehicle busters. They work OK as medium tank busters in pairs.
It's in a good spot. Take away the retreat function and its quirks, its needs to have a lightning fast reset and movement.
I'm all for having the US AT gun or the Zis instead. Way more useful than the Rak.
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4 Jul 2020, 14:10 PM
#17
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Remember when the Rak was a piece of crap that no one used and in response, Fusiliers were the only decent AT weapon OKW had early game?
???
PFs were AI squad up until recent rework.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
4 Jul 2020, 16:20 PM
#18
Posts: 1289
???
PFs were AI squad up until recent rework.
I think he meant the volks shreck blob. 1 vollying mediums and single handidly shutting down all vehicle play vs okw and sniping models with shrecks, vetting insanely fast.
Glad that they are just a bad memory lol.
4 Jul 2020, 16:33 PM
#19
Posts: 1527
Permanently BannedStormjager is probably shitting himself. He can't imagine how many people think rak OP.
However, I think this nerf to the rak is far too drastic. I still stand behind my idea of increasing the RA of the crew.
However, I think this nerf to the rak is far too drastic. I still stand behind my idea of increasing the RA of the crew.
"I wish THQ was still alive and made CoH2. Ostheer for life."
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4 Jul 2020, 16:41 PM
#20
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
Give them 6 men, no retreat. At least test it in a preview just to see what it would be like
I don't think rak is OP, I just think AT guns retreating is silly
I don't think rak is OP, I just think AT guns retreating is silly
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