USF on life support

USF is dependent on map and who they are going against in their own lane. In teamgames it depends later on soviets and UKF for arty and tanks but in it's own right it brings out jackson and pak howits (until stuka comes), or AA HT for any recon plane (if you know stuka is coming, you just wait for scotts).
It's not a weak faction, it's got its merits and depressions. It's versatile but also dependent. It's kinda weird. Great Tank destroyer that is squishy AF. Great AI mainline tank that is squishy AF. Great heavy mortar that is squishy AF. They are really really squishy. Whereas axis can send in a panther on a flank to kill arty and repairing tanks perhaps, and still get away (if no mines) with mediocre micromanaging, USF hasn't really got the tanks for werfer/stuka hunting. USF is just really micro intensive, not weak. Dependent on map design, again, not weak.

Only thing that save USF is stock arty .Or change major arty and make big improvements and make it like UKF arty. Problem is Soviets and UKF can punish blobs easily with UKF on base arty and Soviets with katty and at gun barrage. What USF got ? Shitty major arty that can easily that can be very easily avoided and make no real damage. Main problem with USF is clear.

Pak Howi, 50 Cals, Calliope, Butterfly Bombs, RE's with GL's, early Grenade tech, Scot, M5 HT. newb

....

I don't think I agree with everything(most) here, especially with all the squishy stuff. The M4a3 is no squishier than a cromwell and actually tanker than the t-34/76, the pak howitzer is no squishier than an leig, the Jackson while having slightly less armor than the su85 has more hp then the StuG.

I don't think I agree with everything(most) here, especially with all the squishy stuff. The M4a3 is no squishier than a cromwell and actually tanker than the t-34/76, the pak howitzer is no squishier than an leig, the Jackson while having slightly less armor than the su85 has more hp then the StuG.

Plus the biggest durability boons for the Jackson are its mobility, crew and 60 range.

Pak Howi, 50 Cals, Calliope, Butterfly Bombs, RE's with GL's, early Grenade tech, Scot, M5 HT. newb

Only thing make sense is pak howi. Only thing that you can deal damage at blobs and static infanry with USF. Rest of them nonsense to explain.

I don't think I agree with everything(most) here, especially with all the squishy stuff. The M4a3 is no squishier than a cromwell and actually tanker than the t-34/76, the pak howitzer is no squishier than an leig, the Jackson while having slightly less armor than the su85 has more hp then the StuG.

Why ? Whole USF is based on squishiness. Why all USF topics is just like "guys USF has got pak howi and jackson so just shut up" narrative ? And constant circle jerk by waiting "muh jackson"crew. Most needed rifleman buff does not come until devm wanted. Main problem in this forum is just you guys bombard ideas for revive USF. USF need stock arty other than weird not tank not howi thing scott.

Only thing make sense is pak howi. Only thing that you can deal damage at blobs and static infanry with USF. Rest of them nonsense to explain.



Why ? Whole USF is based on squishiness. Why all USF topics is just like "guys USF has got pak howi and jackson so just shut up" narrative ? And constant circle jerk by waiting "muh jackson"crew. Most needed rifleman buff does not come until devm wanted. Main problem in this forum is just you guys bombard ideas for revive USF. USF need stock arty other than weird not tank not howi thing scott.

Happens for each side. Your main problem is in front of your monitor. Maybe when you stop victimizing yourself and believing everything you have is shit you'll do a little better.

I don't think I agree with everything(most) here, especially with all the squishy stuff. The M4a3 is no squishier than a cromwell and actually tanker than the t-34/76, the pak howitzer is no squishier than an leig, the Jackson while having slightly less armor than the su85 has more hp then the StuG.

I agree on the Sherman, Jackson however is different. Compared to the SU85 it has slightly less armor (translating to 8% more pens by a P4) and most importantly a larger target size, leading to ~25% more natural hits. I would not compare it to the StuG, but the difference in HP only matters if you snare the unit. Otherwise the StuG takes 4 shots as well. It's still the best TD overall, but once the enemy is in range, even a frontal charge can be dangerous for it. And assuming we get a next patch, it is likely that the armor gets lowered. I think also the low pen ATG and lack of mines feed into this, since USF is one of the easiest factions to rush. They are really bad on defense and good on offense, which is part of their faction theme.

I agree on the Sherman, Jackson however is different. Compared to the SU85 it has slightly less armor (translating to 8% more pens by a P4) and most importantly a larger target size, leading to ~25% more natural hits. I would not compare it to the StuG, but the difference in HP only matters if you snare the unit. Otherwise the StuG takes 4 shots as well. It's still the best TD overall, but once the enemy is in range, even a frontal charge can be dangerous for it. And assuming we get a next patch, it is likely that the armor gets lowered. I think also the low pen ATG and lack of mines feed into this, since USF is one of the easiest factions to rush. They are really bad on defense and good on offense, which is part of their faction theme.

You are talking about stug getting lower armor?
You seem to be confused.
Because Jackson can't even bounce P4 at max range anymore.
It got 110 armor and P4 long range pen is 115.
The only long range TD that is more squishy then Jackson is SU-76.

I agree on the Sherman, Jackson however is different. Compared to the SU85 it has slightly less armor (translating to 8% more pens by a P4) and most importantly a larger target size, leading to ~25% more natural hits. I would not compare it to the StuG, but the difference in HP only matters if you snare the unit. Otherwise the StuG takes 4 shots as well. It's still the best TD overall, but once the enemy is in range, even a frontal charge can be dangerous for it. And assuming we get a next patch, it is likely that the armor gets lowered. I think also the low pen ATG and lack of mines feed into this, since USF is one of the easiest factions to rush. They are really bad on defense and good on offense, which is part of their faction theme.

I don't think Stugs are going to get lower armor, or did i miss a thread somewhere?

snip

I don't think Stugs are going to get lower armor, or did i miss a thread somewhere?

Nah, I just screwed up and thought the Jackson armor nerf was not live yet.
The whole text was referring to the Jackson, the StuG points ended with the 4 shots statement.

It improves my point though. The pen chance goes up by 15% then compared to the SU85 vs the P4.

It improves my point though. The pen chance goes up by 15% then compared to the SU85 vs the P4.

I don't think it makes any sense to point that out, when once unit can bounce and other is penned 100% of the time at any range by anything medium that isn't ostwind.

The long range penetration of the PzIV is 110 not 115. 115 is the mid penetration of the PzIV.

I don't think it makes any sense to point that out, when once unit can bounce and other is penned 100% of the time at any range by anything medium that isn't ostwind.

Of course it does.
The initial argument of Serrith was that the Jackson were not any squishier than other TDs. And while the mobility of the Jackson is very good, it is super squishy once it's under attack. And penetration chance is a very fair point in that regard.

Of course it does.
The initial argument of Serrith was that the Jackson were not any squishier than other TDs. And while the mobility of the Jackson is very good, it is super squishy once it's under attack. And penetration chance is a very fair point in that regard.

But it's armour is irrelevant because of its mobility. If a Firefly gets flanked try running away and watch it die. Jackson gets flanked and not only can you run away but you will also fuck up the unit that's chasing you. It was designed to be squishy but it isn't any more.

But it's armour is irrelevant because of its mobility. If a Firefly gets flanked try running away and watch it die. Jackson gets flanked and not only can you run away but you will also fuck up the unit that's chasing you. It was designed to be squishy but it isn't any more.

I'd say irrelevant is an exaggeration (it almost sounds like a Jackson could not die), otherwise the change to lower Jackson's armor would not have been discussed so much and no one would have cared. Still it made it from a vivid discussion to an actual patch.
The change is not about 1v1-ing a Jackson with a P4 or something, but about diving already damaged ones. Blitzkrieg also works wonders for securing the kill. The change is not huge for a single shot, but if the Jackson gets one hit from a PaK or any other source, the chance for a P4 to get three consecutive pens during the chase goes up from 69% to 100%, and that suddenly makes diving a more worthwhile thing to do. And it also allows you to get more damage out frontally if necessary to repel a Jackson.

Of course it does.
The initial argument of Serrith was that the Jackson were not any squishier than other TDs. And while the mobility of the Jackson is very good, it is super squishy once it's under attack. And penetration chance is a very fair point in that regard.

No. I was arguing against protoss Angelo's points regarding the durability of US units. My point was that I dont consider the jackson, sherman and pack howitzer to have a disproportional extreme lack of durability though I fully acknowledge the M4 is tied for the second lowest armor on a non doc generalist medium, and the pak howitzer is tied for the lowest durability on a non doc indirect support gun and the Jackson has the second lowest armor among the 60 range TDs.

I'd say irrelevant is an exaggeration (it almost sounds like a Jackson could not die), otherwise the change to lower Jackson's armor would not have been discussed so much and no one would have cared. Still it made it from a vivid discussion to an actual patch.
The change is not about 1v1-ing a Jackson with a P4 or something, but about diving already damaged ones.

Problem is that other TDs (Jaghtpanzer\Su85\Firefly) can be punished effectively with mediums, two of them lack turrent and fireflys low fire rate makes them un-effective when being flanked.

Jackson on the other hand dont have any disadvantages of mentioned TDs, it has mobility, it has turret and it has relatively fast fire rate + all the benifits of TDs. Making it the most effective TD in the game which is effective against both medium and heavy targets in all possible scenarios.

In my experience, you either need to damage jackson at least 2 times to be able to have decent chances of killing it with P4.

Not to mention moving penalties, while having 100% of penetrate is nice, you still have rather big chances to miss on the move, and you will be moving since Jackson would try to escape.

In a vacuum armor reduction doesnt feel like its gonna to change much, in reality the only way to counter jackson effectively is to damage it to half HP with other AT sources and finish it off with a fast attack of medium, not to mention there could be possible support for it.

I would rather consider lowering its HP to sustain 1 hit less. Because in all honesty, jackson is already easy to penetrate, and you wont be 1v1ing full HP jackson with or without armor nerf with P4, even if it got hitted ones, its still very risky.

Snip

I don't want to turn this into another Jackson thread, so I'll keep it short: yes, I agree with you that the Jackson is disproportiinately good considerung its price and other TDs. But USFs other AT options are also probably the worst in the game, that's why the Jackson has to overperform.
Regarding the HP: the unit was a 3 shotter quite some time ago, I think it was buffed because this was unsustainable for USF and the game flow.
Changing its HP would cause a huge avalanche of USF AT rebalance, which I do not think is worth it since we have a decent chance of ending up with a broken faction (compared to an overperforming AT unit in an otherwise AT underperforming faction)

Its just need somesort of disadvantage which would make it on pair with other TDs either price\moving acc\small range nerf or anything really. AT gun\zooks can get ajustments if they are underperforming.

And in the end of a day USF is the strongest AI faction in the game, with the best stock TD in the game.

I don't want to turn this into another Jackson thread, so I'll keep it short: yes, I agree with you that the Jackson is disproportiinately good considerung its price and other TDs. But USFs other AT options are also probably the worst in the game, that's why the Jackson has to overperform.
Regarding the HP: the unit was a 3 shotter quite some time ago, I think it was buffed because this was unsustainable for USF and the game flow.
Changing its HP would cause a huge avalanche of USF AT rebalance, which I do not think is worth it since we have a decent chance of ending up with a broken faction (compared to an overperforming AT unit in an otherwise AT underperforming faction)

I wouldn't say the usf other option are the worst at all. They are all extremely cheap (barring the Jackson) for example RE with zooks are basicly the cheapest AT squad in the game. Sherman has better than average pen on its AP shells, the 57mm at gun CAN have the highest pen of all man AT guns (on top of highest rof and longest range)
Then doctrinally they have elite zooks, AT variant shermans with great ROF, cheap m10s.... Their options are diverse and frankly decent, but why would you ever build them when all you need is a Jackson?

The only stock change I'd like would be for officers to get elite zooks as well to both make officers more exciting and desirable in the AT role.

Regarding the old Jackson, yea it's old squishiness was an issue, but making it not squishy with hardly any other change is a much worse direction (it's what? 20 fuel more expensive now but still mobile as all hell, accurate on the move, has HVAP with more pen and damage and a crew?)

It would be like saying ost relies on the sniper but is punished for not protecting it so we're giving it another model. But also it has self healing and can shoot on the move.