US Pak Howitzer Is Out Of Control

And grens wouldn't even lose models with their damage decrease vet

Obviously you just want your uber 5man grens to survive direct Pak howi hits now

Oh no the 1 man gren still lives with 10 HP!!!! THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!!!

Pak is the more pressing one imo by a long shot. As shown in those AOE profiles up higher, the pak howi is still dealing full damage out to the range the leig is only dealing half. That a huge splash of damage. Auto firing and dealing chip damage is a very different animal than auto firing and wiping models.

I'm actually curious how the pak howi stacks up against the 120mm

Exactly , the AOE profile is what makes the Pak Howitzer Overpowered

Exactly , the AOE profile is what makes the Pak Howitzer Overpowered

thats what makes it a "howitzer". if you want it to be a mortar, just remove it from the game

thats what makes it a "howitzer". if you want it to be a mortar, just remove it from the game

So if it called a "howizter" it should have large AOE, if it called Leig (infantry support gun ) it should not, although both weapon where of the same caliber 75mm.

And although the 120mm mortar was more lethal in real life (8.3kg for pak and 16kg for PM38).

In sort the name "howitzer" has little to do with performance/balance both in game and in real life.

The unit is simply OP compared to other indirect fire support weapons and especially if one factor in the timing this unit hits the field.

thats what makes it a "howitzer". if you want it to be a mortar, just remove it from the game

leig is supposed to be a hwy but has different aoe profile,
what pople want is not being one shoot at random

wither reduce scatter (more accurate) BUT less near AOE

or change it to a real howy, no auto fire, more shoot x barrage, more range, less CD (a mobile ml 20 with less fire power and range )

Exactly , the AOE profile is what makes the Pak Howitzer Overpowered

AoE profile could be OK if it's output was limited, but it's far from that. With the least micro you have a super charged mortar, with any micro at all you have a massive ranged 3 shot displacement tool that can also dispense fuck you smoke. Like the Jackson it's just got too much. The worst players can still make great use of them but with micro they really shine. The skill floor is high and the skill ceiling is sky high.

120mm mortar

Range:25-100
Damage:80 (68 near/40 mid/20 far)
Aoe:1.5 near/3 mid/4.5 far
Reload: 8.9 seconds
Scatter:10 max (barrage is set at 8 max)

For reference the auto attack max scatter on the pack is set at 8.

So the 120mm mortar isnt to bad in comparison but you really see the effects of the increase scatter and especially the higher reload. I think the 120mm mortar projectile moves faster but because it fires at a higher angle takes longer to travel, that's just my assumption considering the 120mm projectile travels faster than the packs but fires at a higher angle.

In conclusion, the 120mm is a poor mans pack howie (compared to how the pack performs) in my opinion as it takes forever to land a round, large scatter,large barrage times and considering soviet artillary options, the 120mm just isnt pratical which is why they are extremely rarely used.

Edit: for some reason the 120mm barrage aeo near is 1.1 compared to the packs 1.5. Ill also throw this in, the reload on ethe 120mm mortar is 5.175 compared to the packs 3 seconds (leig is 2.3-3.6).

Sorry for being abit off topic.

Dont compare the Pak Howi to the 120mm, the reason the 120mm isnt used is because it has been nerfed to the ground because of QQ threads like these.
It is painfully obvious that most people would like the same fate for the Pak Howi so they dont have to worry about units they cant counter easily.

you've made some very good points here, and your conclusion seems solid.
regarding the scatter comparison i'd be careful taking the distance scatter max values only. especially for indirect fire units, distance scatter is usually much lower than the max scatter would indicate, due to the low distance scatter multiplier.
angular scatter is important as well, and should be included to get a better overall picture.
i'd also take the reload times with a grain of salt, since there's usually considerable aim, windup or winddown delays for mortars. for example, the hm-38 auto attack has a reload of 8.9 s, but the actual time between shots is 13.5 s.

Now I know another reason why its so god dam painful to use (after I had a couple of matches).

It takes 2.5 seconds to tear down and 3.5 seconds to set up with an additional 2 seconds for the crew to begin firing (attached duration) if I am correct.

On top of that, every time you tell the 120mm to barrage besides perfectly perpendicular to the 120mm, it will tear down and set up again with the possibility of having an extra 2 seconds to 'man the gun' can take a whopping 8 seconds to fire its first fkn round.

I would like to add, the 120mm also bugged out and sometimes dosnt show a firing or reloading animation, the mortar round appears out of nowhere (I was using attack ground, could be the case with other mortars but never seen it).

Now I know another reason why its so god dam painful to use (after I had a couple of matches).

It takes 2.5 seconds to tear down and 3.5 seconds to set up with an additional 2 seconds for the crew to begin firing (attached duration) if I am correct.

On top of that, every time you tell the 120mm to barrage besides perfectly perpendicular to the 120mm, it will tear down and set up again with the possibility of having an extra 2 seconds to 'man the gun' can take a whopping 8 seconds to fire its first fkn round.

I would like to add, the 120mm also bugged out and sometimes dosnt show a firing or reloading animation, the mortar round appears out of nowhere (I was using attack ground, could be the case with other mortars but never seen it).

Bath posts are very informative. Just to enumerate the reasons that make it lethal: close range aoe value is relatively high; fast setup/tear down/time to fire, good scatter, good range. Am I missing something?

Bath posts are very informative. Just to enumerate the reasons that make it lethal: close range aoe value is relatively high; fast setup/tear down/time to fire, good scatter, good range. Am I missing something?

I dont take to much time to understand how all this works, I am not sure about the 'attached duration' its just the fact no other mortar has it. however, there are so many different barrages with different values I just go with the auto attack barrage stats so the only conclusive thing I know is the set up/tear down time.

The pack howie has 1.8 set up but no tear down time.

The leig has none.

Both we all know cant retreat and de-crew easily.

thats what makes it a "howitzer". if you want it to be a mortar, just remove it from the game

It works like a super accurate mortar right now, don't get it. It is a fuk machine, simply op and bad designed. As Scot is to accurate on the move and Brummbär bugging with shooting-angle making its performance random.

1. Thankfully, the Pwerfer, like all rocket arti (besides the perfectly balanced stuka zu fuss, and arguably Calliope) needs to be essentially hugging the front line to work consistently. IE if you are consistently losing pack howitzers to them, you have them way too goddamn close.
2. There's a lot to unpack here, but if you are getting snipers in response to pack howies, you're using snipers wrong. If you're using snipers successfully to counter any sort of indirect, you're opponent is just dumb. if you double teched for pack howies and m20s, and it isn't in the late game, I pity any allies you might be playing with.
3. Imagine mentioning diving with armor being ineffective, while literally 2 sentences later mentioning that its effective. except one is vs expensive one hit killed rocket artillery, and the other vs recrewable team weapons. Since you went captain, you have this magical thing called an AT gun, which makes it excessively risky to dive a p4, or something, for a team weapon that is easily recrewed, especially with the ost player knowing a jackson isn't far behind their first tank. Want to know what happens when I lose a pack howitzer? I say "oh no!" immediately recrew it, and send it to be almost instantly replenished by my forward ambulance. Don't need veterancy if vet 0 suffices.

I think you misunderstood my point. I was simply explaining the asymmetries that US and OST have. Just like pzwfr is very good against USF TW play and sniper is good against any US build, pack howie is good against infantry and TW of OST.

Also I mentioned ineffective armor diving of US tanks and effective armor diving of OST tanks I don't know how you misunderstood that I did try to mention it in separate points with specifically highlighting the factions. The possibility of pak40 penetrating M4A3 is 9/10 and Jackson is 10/10. The possibility of M1 penetrating Panzer 4 is 7/10 and even less on Panther and Stupa. Vet 0 penetration for pak is 200 and M1 is 140 while the armor on Panzer 4 is more than Sherman. See the difference? That's why I mentioned it is easier for OST to dive and get away, not counting the blitz ability and the panzer tactician present in few commanders.

Pzwfr has 240 range and pack howie has 120 and you are saying that 120 range is less? That's still 2x the Jacksons max range and 4x if you count jackson being close to howie. Pzwfr has a turret and it fires all its missiles in a single salvo unlike katyusha hence it does not even have to stick around after firing and getting spotted in the FOW.

I don't want to turn this into a biasness of factions debate, my point was that every faction has its crucial points and asymmetry. USF has pack howie please don't cry about it whereas OST has every possible unit in the game except the long range mobile howies but it does have mortars with +5 range benefit.

Pzwfr has 240 range and pack howie has 120 and you are saying that 120 range is less? That's still 2x the Jacksons max range and 4x if you count jackson being close to howie. Pzwfr has a turret and it fires all its missiles in a single salvo unlike katyusha hence it does not even have to stick around after firing and getting spotted in the FOW.

It is more the problem that in many games the front its hold by one HMG or one PaK40, if they die you can easy be steam-roled by US. Sure, it is same for Ostheer, but there are multible fraction-design issues howitzer sniping some primary units to effective.

There are many problems coming together.

@Relic Please can you release a hotfix patch addressing the US Pak Howitzer and its abilities. It is incredibly overpowered in its current state .

Axis weeaboos crying about overpowered howitzer, ISU-152, Jackson, Brits, soviets, M20, Scott, and whatnot.
PakH is anything but overpowered. You need exactly one squad flanking to kill it, or werfer, or mortar, or Leig. Man the people on these forums are Bdead. How can you call an anti-camp unit OP?
PakH is a response to MG spam since the US mortar is ineffective and getting it early on leads to other problems especially if playing vs OKW. PakH is slow moving/rotating, useless vs anything that's moving...unless it's a blob. Then targeting the first squad of the blob will secure a blow to the rearmost squad (delay). It's easy to decrew which leads to a lot of bleed and you need to constantly keep moving it around since werfers and stukas and mortars will make short work of it. I've seen people complain in game as to why am I using the OP PakHowi, while they spam bunkers and MGs and grens with MG42s. Sure, you spam the MG42s which pin in a second any squad out of green cover and I won't use the pak but mortars and wait a couple of minutes for the mortar barrage to kill one MG squad... sure

PakH is great early on but as the game progresses and there are stukas and werfers, the 1 or 2 PakHowits you have are going to be a real micro/bleed problem. Furthermore, if the enemy goes LeHF arty, you can kiss the howits bye bye after the counter barrage. That's the real cancer, team games with LeHF. The high scatter will ensure that there is no safe place in the vicinity of the bombardment. You're moving your units one screen away from your PakHowits which are under arty counter-fire and all of a sudden, you lose one squad to a random shell. Happened enough times to start doubting everything I learned in the statistics class.
I remember a game on fields of winnekendonk where I had a howi in base shelling the OST blob trying to push all the way, and all of a sudden 2 LeHFs start shelling my base. 2 shells completely wiped 4 reinforcing infantry spread apart (scatter). On one hand you have a mobile mini arty piece that is a good unit. On other, you have a static arty which can shell any part of map and completely shut down pak howits with counter ability.

Axis weeaboos crying about overpowered howitzer, ISU-152, Jackson, Brits, soviets, M20, Scott, and whatnot.

Ah shit, here we go again.

Bath posts are very informative. Just to enumerate the reasons that make it lethal: close range aoe value is relatively high; fast setup/tear down/time to fire, good scatter, good range. Am I missing something?

It has a flare

@Relic Please can you release a hotfix patch addressing the US Pak Howitzer and its abilities. It is incredibly overpowered in its current state .

Mental incapability to move units away from barrage/line of sight is not a balance problem that relic can address.

Mental incapability to move units away from barrage/line of sight is not a balance problem that relic can address.

...but the lethality of indirect fire that is just much higher than that of other indirect fire units can br changed.

...but the lethality of indirect fire that is just much higher than that of other indirect fire units can br changed.

Will you stop ignoring the fact that this particular indirect fire is also much more expensive and arrives much later then anything else?

Expensive units that arrive later perform better then cheap early game units.
In case you don't know, this is why Obers beat conscripts.