US Pak Howitzer Is Out Of Control

Side note here, since many people mentioned LeiG as an axis analogue of pak howie, i would mainly disagree, but admit that are some common points when comparing 2 LeiG vs 1 pak howie performance. Ideally axis stock indirect fire (OST mortar, OKW LeiG) are early options with some midgame presence, pak howie is a mid game unit with late game presence.

Pack Howie:
Range 40-80 (40 near / 60 mid / 80 far)
Damage: 80 (68 near / 40 mid / 20 far)
AOE: 5 (1.5 near / 3 mid / 4.5 far)
Reload: 7

Leig:
Range 40-80 (40 near / 60 mid / 80 far)
Damage: 80 (68 near/ 40 mid / 20 far)
AOE: 4 (0.75 near / 1.5 mid / 2.25 far)
Reload: 6.5-7.1

I don't see how you avoid the comparison, these units are very similar in function and role. Outside of these stats, the Pack has more penetration and better ability unlocks, while the Leig is cheaper, has better vet, and scatters less.

Pack howitser auto fires, zero micro required

I have to constantly micro movev my infantry and support weapons to not die.

That´s the problem.

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I don't see how you avoid the comparison, these units are very similar in function and role. Outside of these stats, the Pack has more penetration and better ability unlocks, while the Leig is cheaper, has better vet, and scatters less.

First, dont take my opinion personally, i am not addressing anyone, just speaking my mind out loud.
Those stats might look fine in paper, but gameplay wise, many (A LOT) of other factors are cramped in affecting the final performance of both "compared" units.

Also there are other very important values you could add like Shell AoE, barrages AoE and CD.
Consider that USF doesnt only faces OKW, 4 man squads of OST suffer A lot from this weapon designs. So does UKF from double LeiG.

Finally, from my experience, a single LeiG is a rare sight, but double Pak Howies are absolutly cancerous.
Meanwhile double LeiG are as common as single Pak Howies on average to high skill players.

Pack howitser auto fires, zero micro required

I have to constantly micro movev my infantry and support weapons to not die.

That´s the problem.

I would sincerely like to see both, LeiG but mainly Pak Howie's autofires removed.

I would sincerely like to see both, LeiG but mainly Pak Howie's autofires removed.

Pak is the more pressing one imo by a long shot. As shown in those AOE profiles up higher, the pak howi is still dealing full damage out to the range the leig is only dealing half. That a huge splash of damage. Auto firing and dealing chip damage is a very different animal than auto firing and wiping models.

I'm actually curious how the pak howi stacks up against the 120mm

I'm actually curious how the pak howi stacks up against the 120mm

Imo it's much much better than the 120mm. Besides having retreat, the only advantage I can think of for 120mm is auto-attack range (120mm has 100, pak howy has 80 iirc). But the barrage range on pak is better than that anyway, and you have some great barrages

I think almost every other stat favors the pak howy. Aoe, reload, scatter, are all better I'm pretty sure

Pak is the more pressing one imo by a long shot. As shown in those AOE profiles up higher, the pak howi is still dealing full damage out to the range the leig is only dealing half. That a huge splash of damage. Auto firing and dealing chip damage is a very different animal than auto firing and wiping models.

I'm actually curious how the pak howi stacks up against the 120mm

120mm mortar

Range:25-100
Damage:80 (68 near/40 mid/20 far)
Aoe:1.5 near/3 mid/4.5 far
Reload: 8.9 seconds
Scatter:10 max (barrage is set at 8 max)

For reference the auto attack max scatter on the pack is set at 8.

So the 120mm mortar isnt to bad in comparison but you really see the effects of the increase scatter and especially the higher reload. I think the 120mm mortar projectile moves faster but because it fires at a higher angle takes longer to travel, that's just my assumption considering the 120mm projectile travels faster than the packs but fires at a higher angle.

In conclusion, the 120mm is a poor mans pack howie (compared to how the pack performs) in my opinion as it takes forever to land a round, large scatter,large barrage times and considering soviet artillary options, the 120mm just isnt pratical which is why they are extremely rarely used.

Edit: for some reason the 120mm barrage aeo near is 1.1 compared to the packs 1.5. Ill also throw this in, the reload on ethe 120mm mortar is 5.175 compared to the packs 3 seconds (leig is 2.3-3.6).

Sorry for being abit off topic.

Replace Pak howie with Calliope and call it a day.

120mm mortar

Range:25-100
Damage:80 (68 near/40 mid/20 far)
Aoe:1.5 near/3 mid/4.5 far
Reload: 8.9 seconds
Scatter:10 max (barrage is set at 8 max)

For reference the auto attack max scatter on the pack is set at 8.

So the 120mm mortar isnt to bad in comparison but you really see the effects of the increase scatter and especially the higher reload. I think the 120mm mortar projectile moves faster but because it fires at a higher angle takes longer to travel, that's just my assumption considering the 120mm projectile travels faster than the packs but fires at a higher angle.

In conclusion, the 120mm is a poor mans pack howie (compared to how the pack performs) in my opinion as it takes forever to land a round, large scatter,large barrage times and considering soviet artillary options, the 120mm just isnt pratical which is why they are extremely rarely used.

Edit: for some reason the 120mm barrage aeo near is 1.1 compared to the packs 1.5. Ill also throw this in, the reload on ethe 120mm mortar is 5.175 compared to the packs 3 seconds (leig is 2.3-3.6).

you've made some very good points here, and your conclusion seems solid.
regarding the scatter comparison i'd be careful taking the distance scatter max values only. especially for indirect fire units, distance scatter is usually much lower than the max scatter would indicate, due to the low distance scatter multiplier.
angular scatter is important as well, and should be included to get a better overall picture.
i'd also take the reload times with a grain of salt, since there's usually considerable aim, windup or winddown delays for mortars. for example, the hm-38 auto attack has a reload of 8.9 s, but the actual time between shots is 13.5 s.

Replace Pak howie with Calliope and call it a day.

how dare you

Thanks sky, selvy and MMX for shedding a bit of light on the 120mm

I know it's slightly off the nose of the topic but think the 120 should be part of the discussion to the pak howi. While the leig both share a similar delivery system their role is somewhat different whereas the 120 and pak howi both fill the same role but deliver it differently.

they share the same role? what game are we talking about again?

Replace Pak howie with Calliope and call it a day.

Make a limit to 1 Calliope non-doc and it will be more balanced than current pak-howitzers.

Simply bad designed.

The pak howi is alot slower than mortars so if you use your mobility you can still pressure and fight it.
Not to mention that the autofire range for the pak howi is quite low aswell.

You probably cant straight up 1v1 it with something that is not rocket/field arti.
But if these things do come into play the pak howi is one of the most easy targets on the field.

The USF mortar cant 1v1 the OST mortar or OKW LeiG either, but somehow thats fine.

they share the same role? what game are we talking about again?

They're both longer range indirect fire pieces, they cost the same (340mp) and are stronger than the mortar both factions can get earlier in the game. It's pretty obvious they're supposed to be the same role

The pak howy is way better, but it probably shouldn't be. 120mm could use a buff or at least a cost decrease if they're not gonna change the pak howy

they share the same role? what game are we talking about again?

I know what game I'm talking about, as well as design considerations and balance considerations. Perhaps you would enlight me with what game you are talking about so we can point you to the right forum? The pak howi and 120mm have more in common than not and have more in common than the pak and leig do

Take it from this Ostheer fanboy (though Stormjager called me a USF fanboy, didn't know u could be a fanboy of multiple factions), the pak howitzer is not "out of control." Just needs a bit less damage and a slightly bigger AoE.

a the good old leigh

gain one leigh, see its vet 2, mighty 2 kills

see pack howi vet 2, 20+ kills

lovely

Take it from this Ostheer fanboy (though Stormjager called me a USF fanboy, didn't know u could be a fanboy of multiple factions), the pak howitzer is not "out of control." Just needs a bit less damage and a slightly bigger AoE.

And grens wouldn't even lose models with their damage decrease vet

Obviously you just want your uber 5man grens to survive direct Pak howi hits now