5man grens OP?

Also, stormtroopers not useful? Wat?
They might not be commandos, but they certainly do their job well and can nuke sneaked up weapon team or unsuspecting squad very quick.

They do not have bundle grenades anymore. Sure they can flank support weapons but panzergrens and regular grens can do the same thing.

They do not have bundle grenades anymore. Sure they can flank support weapons but panzergrens and regular grens can do the same thing.

I'm referring to tactical advance or whatever their skill is called.

I'm referring to tactical advance or whatever their skill is called.

Sure the ability is nice but not worth an entire doctrinal slot. Additionally, 5 man pioneers plus flamer work much better in most situations then the stormtrooper smg upgrade while being much more convenient.

Sure the ability is nice but not worth an entire doctrinal slot. Additionally, 5 man pioneers plus flamer work much better in most situations then the stormtrooper smg upgrade while being much more convenient.

I disagree on several levels.

First, I disagree that losing the bundle nade all of a sudden made stormtroopers not worth getting. Their wipe potential always came primarily from tactical advance meaning the bundles grenade was mainly for forcing the enemy to abandon cover, which the current incendiary grenade does arguably better.

Second, I disagree that the 5 man pios with flamethrower "work much better" than stormtroopers in "most situations". Sure, for clearing garrisons 5man pios with flamer is going to be more cost efficient in the long run, netting you less mp bleed and no recurring munitions cost. But that's not what you use stormtroopers for. Stormtroopers are primarily ambushers and flankers, that can also engage in frontline CQC in a pinch. In these roles they are far superior to pios, 5 man or not.

It certainly doesn't hurt that stormtroopers have infiltrate and smoke nades- smoke being somewhat uncommon in the ostheer lineup, only available on one stock unit(mortar).

If stormtroopers arent worth a slot, then neither are shocks.

I do think Stormtroopers' tactical advance ability cost should be reduced to the same as USF paratroopers; I think it was only higher because Stormtroopers came with STG-44s before and were thusly hilariously powerful with tactical advance.

I do think Stormtroopers' tactical advance ability cost should be reduced to the same as USF paratroopers; I think it was only higher because Stormtroopers came with STG-44s before and were thusly hilariously powerful with tactical advance.

While I agree about making the costs the same for the sake of consistency, one must be careful giving such power easily to units that can camo. I'd almost sooner nerf the Para version than make ambush insta wipes too cheaply bought

infantry in the lategame doesnt get wiped by small arms fire, its mostly some sort of rocket. Thats why i call them the most durable sqad since even pfussis seem to get wiped easier by rocket barrages then grens.

I just feel like whenever peaple discuss grens is that they forget to mention the 20% dmg decrease at vet3 which is IMO the best vet OH could have ever dreamd off

^This. In UTT2 there were numerous occasions of infantry being wiped by rocket arty, crocodile or other tanks and nades, yet the 20% DR helped Grens not get wiped many times. Just as Fire and Terror said, infantry doesn't get wiped by small arms unless it had a horrible retreat route or the squad was misplaced/forgotten.

5-men Grens are powerful, but that's exactly what the doctrine is about. Stormtroopers are great for some sneaky wipes and frag bombing was the most consistently wiping offmap of the tournament. The doctrine is clearly one of the best that Wehr has but is not OP imho. I think more docs should be like this one.

I disagree on several levels.

First, I disagree that losing the bundle nade all of a sudden made stormtroopers not worth getting. Their wipe potential always came primarily from tactical advance meaning the bundles grenade was mainly for forcing the enemy to abandon cover, which the current incendiary grenade does arguably better.

Second, I disagree that the 5 man pios with flamethrower "work much better" than stormtroopers in "most situations". Sure, for clearing garrisons 5man pios with flamer is going to be more cost efficient in the long run, netting you less mp bleed and no recurring munitions cost. But that's not what you use stormtroopers for. Stormtroopers are primarily ambushers and flankers, that can also engage in frontline CQC in a pinch. In these roles they are far superior to pios, 5 man or not.

It certainly doesn't hurt that stormtroopers have infiltrate and smoke nades- smoke being somewhat uncommon in the ostheer lineup, only available on one stock unit(mortar).

If stormtroopers arent worth a slot, then neither are shocks.

Personally, I am not a fan of grenades in general due to latency issues. That was argument over a miscommunication.

Any unit can flank, might as well as use the much more available pioneer squad. The 5 man squad upgrade allows them to do actual damage. Camouflage is only allows for ambushing with out the usage of line of sight blockers. Shocks can engage in frontal combat, Stormtroopers can not.

My biggest grip with them is their still having an identity crisis. Before hand with grens and panzergrens and now with grens and pios. They offer no unique weapon to make them stand out. A simple change is to thier panzersheck upgrade to the unused PzB AT rifle and the MP40 to the MP41(r) aka PPSH in parabellem. Additionally, for an elite unit they die extremely easy to explosive true damage. Additionally they should be good at stock and the SMG upgrade should be a side grade. Easiest way to fix this is to make them a 5 man squad and then adjust the SMGs.

... Easiest way to fix this is to make them a 5 man squad and then adjust the SMGs.

I agree and had pointed out during the preview.

Although I one could also redesign them as a cheaper reckon unit closer to Pathfinders.

I agree and had pointed out during the preview.

Although I one could also redesign them as a cheaper reckon unit closer to Pathfinders.

Personally I would change all one man, one shot snipers to function like light infantry.

Any unit can flank, might as well as use the much more available pioneer squad. The 5 man squad upgrade allows them to do actual damage. Camouflage is only allows for ambushing with out the usage of line of sight blockers. Shocks can engage in frontal combat, Stormtroopers can not.

My biggest grip with them is their still having an identity crisis. Before hand with grens and panzergrens and now with grens and pios. They offer no unique weapon to make them stand out. A simple change is to thier panzersheck upgrade to the unused PzB AT rifle and the MP40 to the MP41(r) aka PPSH in parabellem. Additionally, for an elite unit they die extremely easy to explosive true damage. Additionally they should be good at stock and the SMG upgrade should be a side grade. Easiest way to fix this is to make them a 5 man squad and then adjust the SMGs.

There is a massive discrepency in damage output even between 5 man pios, and stormtroopers. An mp40 stormtrooper squad has a close range dps of ~75 while 5 man pios have a dps of 34.19. There is also the fact that stormtroopers are more likely to be undetected(cammo) while performing said flank increasing the chance they can actually do damage once they arrive, and there's the fact they have tactical advance which absolutely melts retreating models. It's like Thompson paras except with cloaking.


If it is true that a unit must have a unique weapon to be valuable, and you believe that the stormtrooper mp40s have overlap with pioneers, then I'm guessing you find assault grenadiers and ostruppen to be useless.
Except they aren't. They offer combat utility that is more then just the name of their weapons, but even so I fully disagree their weapons are not "unique". Stormtroopers are equipped with some of the highest DPS weapons on the game. In fact, there is only one infantry small arm that has more close range dps and that's the Ober STGs. I'd call this weapon profile unique for ostheer.

As for being too squishy against explosives, name one 4 man elite infantry unit that is less vulnerable to them. Your argument applies equally to FSJ and obers as well. Nobody is complaining about those units performance.


The SMGs may as well be a "stock loadout" given they are free. The reason they aren't "stock" is so that you can't just poop them out of any building in your enemies retreat path and expect ez wipes, but make no mistake- they are designed with the mp40s in mind, not the K98s.
I'm baffled you think they have a role overlap with grens.

There is a massive discrepency in damage output even between 5 man pios, and stormtroopers. An mp40 stormtrooper squad has a close range dps of ~75 while 5 man pios have a dps of 34.19. There is also the fact that stormtroopers are more likely to be undetected(cammo) while performing said flank increasing the chance they can actually do damage once they arrive, and there's the fact they have tactical advance which absolutely melts retreating models. It's like Thompson paras except with cloaking.


If it is true that a unit must have a unique weapon to be valuable, and you believe that the stormtrooper mp40s have overlap with pioneers, then I'm guessing you find assault grenadiers and ostruppen to be useless.
Except they aren't. They offer combat utility that is more then just the name of their weapons, but even so I fully disagree their weapons are not "unique". Stormtroopers are equipped with some of the highest DPS weapons on the game. In fact, there is only one infantry small arm that has more close range dps and that's the Ober STGs.

As for being too squishy against explosives, name one 4 man elite infantry unit that is less vulnerable to them. Your argument applies equally to FSJ and obers as well. Nobody is complaining about those units performance.


The SMGs may as well be a "stock loadout" given they are free. The reason they aren't "stock" is so that you can't just poop them out of any building in your enemies retreat path and expect ez wipes, but make no mistake- they are designed with the mp40s in mind, not the K98s.

I have issues with both Assault Grens and Osttruppen. Assault Grens only are reasonable because pioneers and unnecessarily weak while Osteer still do not have t0 grens. Osttruppen have a horribly designed accuracy buff and debuff when they should and only a defensive buff while in cover. Then lets look at OKW, Volks, panzerfusilers, and Obers. Lets have two T0 0CP squads with 5 man bolt action rifles, with grenades, snares, and anti infantry upgrade. An easy answer is to change panzerfuisllers into an 4 man squad with two panzershrecks and able to lay tellers. A decated AT squad. Obers have good rifles and should be equipped with G43s while retaining their same DPS.

These are design issues, not balance issues. By your logic why not make all bolt action rifles sound the same since it does not matter?

FSJ and Obers have long range dps while stormtroopers have to enter grenade range with their smg upgrade. Hence why the G43 upgrade for Elite Troops perform with great effect and less likely to get wiped. The longer range allows more reaction time when you hear rocket arty as well to avoid them.

If they are design around the SMG upgrade then that is bad. There is overlap with panzergrens and panzergrens are much more useful. There are two roles they can fit in better. General Elite or Demolition Experts.

.. Stormtroopers are equipped with some of the highest DPS weapons on the game...

Problem here is that they lose 25% of that DPS with every model dropped and that makes CQB fighting very RNG. I have seen ST losing to conscripts...

High DPS weapon is not the good design for 4 men squad and the DPS should be more concentrate.

Personally I would change all one man, one shot snipers to function like light infantry.

I would change all "critical hit" infatry to be cheaper with less pop and have the critical kill ability turned into a timed ability. One could try to have them prioritize snipers for the duration.

As for sniper I would try to replace the critical kill to damage (40?) and have the critical kill only work on team weapon.

I have issues with both Assault Grens and Osttruppen. Assault Grens only are reasonable because pioneers and unnecessarily weak while Osteer still do not have t0 grens. Osttruppen have a horribly designed accuracy buff and debuff when they should and only a defensive buff while in cover. Then lets look at OKW, Volks, panzerfusilers, and Obers. Lets have two T0 0CP squads with 5 man bolt action rifles, with grenades, snares, and anti infantry upgrade. An easy answer is to change panzerfuisllers into an 4 man squad with two panzershrecks and able to lay tellers. A decated AT squad. Obers have good rifles and should be equipped with G43s while retaining their same DPS.

These are design issues, not balance issues. By your logic why not make all bolt action rifles sound the same since it does not matter?

FSJ and Obers have long range dps while stormtroopers have to enter grenade range with their smg upgrade. Hence why the G43 upgrade for Elite Troops perform with great effect and less likely to get wiped. The longer range allows more reaction time when you hear rocket arty as well to avoid them.

If they are design around the SMG upgrade then that is bad. There is overlap with panzergrens and panzergrens are much more useful. There are two roles they can fit in better. General Elite or Demolition Experts.

Pioneers are not unnecessarily weak, I disagree with this fundamentally. Pioneers reinforcement costs are slightly too expensive, but for what they are supposed to be, their combat abilities are fine.
Assault grens would be called in even if tier 1 was required for them. In fact, we see some builds going for MG42 a gren AND an assault gren.

I can agree fusiliers have a lot of overlap with volks, they both upgrade to mid range weapons, they both start with bolt actions, they both have snares, they have the same reinforcement costs. This is not the case with any of the other units you mentioned.

"By your logic why not make all bolt action rifles sound the same since it does not matter?"

If you think this is what my logic indicates, then you should read and re-read what I wrote so you can properly understand it.

You stated that because stormtroopers lack a "unique weapon" they don't stand out, implying they are not useful or worth purchasing over stock units. My refutation of your statement was that that a unit's weapons alone do not give the unit all its utility.
By YOUR logic, nobody should ever build conscripts because they lack a unique weapon (being identical to combat engineers) and don't "stand out".

I'm very confused by your "rocket arty" assertion. How does the optimal engagement range of a unit dictate the speed at which a unit can retreat from a rocket artillery? If two rocket strikes are called DIRECTLY on two separate units-one that is advancing and one that is static, how is the advancing one disadvantaged? If it's because the arty could be firing in its retreat path, that applies to both squads.


Finally, if you are trying to use panzergrenadiers like stormtroopers, then you are using them wrong. Panzergrenadiers are mid range specialists. They are your generalist infantry capable of engaging at any range, but with a slight emphasis on close range, and really shine as screening troops-something that their vehicle proximity buff really emphasizes.

Stormtroopers do not function in any of these roles. Seriously, what the hell are you using your stormtroopers for? Frontline assault?

The unique attributes stormtroopers bring to the table-exceptional CQC dps, passive self healing, faster decapture rate then normal troops, commando type stealth, extreme wipe potential with tactical advance, the ability to lay booby traps, the ability to basically twoshot caches, and one of only two stock ostheer units to have smoke.
If you can't figure out a useful way to utilize this unit, that's on you.

Problem here is that they lose 25% of that DPS with every model dropped and that makes CQB fighting very RNG. I have seen ST losing to conscripts...

High DPS weapon is not the good design for 4 men squad and the DPS should be more concentrate.

I think it comes down to the squad's role. If you intend the squad to be trading fire against entrenched opponents then obviously this is going to be problematic. But you really shouldn't be using stormtroopers like this.

I'd also be very curious to see your stormtrooper losing to conscript scenario. I feel like the only way this is going to happen is if unstealthed stormtroopers are charging conscripts in cover.

Pioneers are not unnecessarily weak, I disagree with this fundamentally. Pioneers reinforcement costs are slightly too expensive, but for what they are supposed to be, their combat abilities are fine.
Assault grens would be called in even if tier 1 was required for them. In fact, we see some builds going for MG42 a gren AND an assault gren.

I can agree fusiliers have a lot of overlap with volks, they both upgrade to mid range weapons, they both start with bolt actions, they both have snares, they have the same reinforcement costs. This is not the case with any of the other units you mentioned.

"By your logic why not make all bolt action rifles sound the same since it does not matter?"

If you think this is what my logic indicates, then you should read and re-read what I wrote so you can properly understand it.

You stated that because stormtroopers lack a "unique weapon" they don't stand out, implying they are not useful or worth purchasing over stock units. My refutation of your statement was that that a unit's weapons alone do not give the unit all its utility.
By YOUR logic, nobody should ever build conscripts because they lack a unique weapon (being identical to combat engineers) and don't "stand out".

I'm very confused by your "rocket arty" assertion. How does the optimal engagement range of a unit dictate the speed at which a unit can retreat from a rocket artillery? If two rocket strikes are called DIRECTLY on two separate units-one that is advancing and one that is static, how is the advancing one disadvantaged? If it's because the arty could be firing in its retreat path, that applies to both squads.


Finally, if you are trying to use panzergrenadiers like stormtroopers, then you are using them wrong. Panzergrenadiers are mid range specialists. They are your generalist infantry capable of engaging at any range, but with a slight emphasis on close range, and really shine as screening troops-something that their vehicle proximity buff really emphasizes.

Stormtroopers do not function in any of these roles. Seriously, what the hell are you using your stormtroopers for? Frontline assault?

The unique attributes stormtroopers bring to the table-exceptional CQC dps, passive self healing, faster decapture rate then normal troops, commando type stealth, extreme wipe potential with tactical advance, the ability to lay booby traps, the ability to basically twoshot caches, and one of only two stock ostheer units to have smoke.
If you can't figure out a useful way to utilize this unit, that's on you.

Pioneers combat ability is not fine. Even with a perfect engagement they still generally lose. A unit in the early game that can not fight is generally worthless. In 1v1s where units are spread out and only really on their positioning they can not win. In team games where groups of enemies they contribute nothing. Assault grenadiers fills in an unnecessary void created by the lack of T0 Grens and weak pioneers.

Sound is huge problem with confidence and convey damage. We have the mp40 sound used by the lack luster pioneers and weapon teams defense weapon for years now.

People generally keep their rocket arty in one general location. Longer range units can easily force a rocket unit to move inorder to fire, delaying it. Alternatively if it were in range, the rockets have more travel time to their target if the unit is a long range dps unit rather than a close range unit. Travel time is the key from when the sound of firing is first heard to impact time.

Panzergrens are better at flanking then Stormtroopers. Able to engage at longer distance put more damage on target. Their mid range damage allows to be much better at close range because then can drop a model faster and quicker. Their more general purpose thus making superior.

I do not deny Stormtroopers have good damage, they are very out shined by everything else. Their three doctrines that they are in even support other units better. Stormtroopers with G43s are hands better then the SMG upgrade. Encirclement doctrine has ambush camouflage making the Panzergrendiers even a better option plus grenadiers can get into the stealth ambush game. Infantry Stormtrooper have to contend with grenadiers and pioneers whom offer more durability as well as damage.

I think it comes down to the squad's role. If you intend the squad to be trading fire against entrenched opponents then obviously this is going to be problematic. But you really shouldn't be using stormtroopers like this.

Not really. The DPS of drop off of 4 men squads is simply to high.

I'd also be very curious to see your stormtrooper losing to conscript scenario. I feel like the only way this is going to happen is if unstealthed stormtroopers are charging conscripts in cover.

I have seen it happen due to poor RNG (it no very probable), the conscripts got lucky and drop a model fast then ST had to retreat after losing a second model or risk death on retreat.

Again the high DPS weapons do not work well with 4 men squad especially with CQB squads where one will suffer loses. Having concentrated DPS in 1-2 weapons work better.

Same goes for squad with lots of entities. ST44 VG are prime example of this.

Personally I would change all one man, one shot snipers to function like light infantry.

That would be great. Give em a muni snipe like paths from AA just for extra oomph but make recon squads instead of snipers.

IDK I don't think it's rocket science why 5 men Grens are popular. You get extra survivability with 5th man on top of additional RA with upgrade. It's a super user friendly upgrade that also makes them suck less hard as close range vs. Rifles and Cons - they don't perform super well at close range but they don't get dumpstered as hard as LMG grens. I don't think that necessarily means that are OP - maybe just better than LMG and G43 grens in some cases which I think is okay for an ability on just one commander.

That would be great. Give em a muni snipe like paths from AA just for extra oomph but make recon squads instead of snipers.

How about a little extra range such a 40 from 35? This could make them able support other units who draw fire rather then fight for themselves?