USF M20 dead?

I'd just make the armour upgrade cheaper or get rid of it altogether making it stock (just like 222 lost the gun upgrade). Should be enough imo.

I like the at rounds on its mg idea as it would be really unique. Still, I feel the armour would be the best option. The mine can be used as an at solution with some micro and thought.

Same can be said about using LVs (that isn't a puma) against UKF. Completely pointless due to the AEC coming so early that it comes at the same time as the 1st 222.

I want to see cheaper skirts on the M20 and a slower arriving AEC.

Skirts are fine, and were fine, they weren't ever a problem and I don't think they are now.

But the build time double nerf I agree is doubly oppressive and the .50 cal mounted on the M20 could use a very slight base penetration buff (talking even just +1 at all ranges) or a better vet 3 penetration bonus. Unit would be fine with just that.

The bigger issue with its use in teamgames is that there's not really anything to harass on most maps, so it's just not good as soon as it gets zoned out by AT and it doesn't really have any other saving graces as far as combat usage goes. At that point its basically just a glorified minelayer and recon, which isn't worth having to backtech for an ATG.

Is there an argument for removing and replacing it with the M8 from recon support? Then find something else to go in that commander.

I just can't believe what I'm reading sometimes. Ostheer stock light vehicle is a glass cannon and there are players who can use it really well. It has no crew, no smoke and no armour upgrade. It can't lay better version of a teller. I understand people would still say it is OP. Just incredible.

Is there an argument for removing and replacing it with the M8 from recon support? Then find something else to go in that commander.

You're about 5 years late for that.

I just can't believe what I'm reading sometimes. Ostheer stock light vehicle is a glass cannon and there are players who can use it really well. It has no crew, no smoke and no armour upgrade. It can't lay better version of a teller. I understand people would still say it is OP. Just incredible.

Then how comes nobody uses it anymore? Whereas 222 gets used almost every game. Now please dont give me a response like "because Stuart and Flak HT are OP"

Then how comes nobody uses it anymore? Whereas 222 gets used almost every game. Now please dont give me a response like "because Stuart and Flak HT are OP"

I'm ok with buffing its armour. Yet, I'm really surprised that a really flexible vehicle is downplayed so much. The answer You gave to Yourself is correct. 222 is followed by P4 whereas USF can field Stuart or a Flak HT. Since they need Jackson or Sherman they can't build too many lights. You can always replace the crew with echelons or just grab a bazooka with crew if you have to. The overall changes to M20 were good. It is still used and can surprise. I wish USF had a commander that would allow to get rid of unwanted vehicles for some resource return. It could also make it possible to make such vehicle viable.

I'm ok with buffing its armour. Yet, I'm really surprised that a really flexible vehicle is downplayed so much. The answer You gave to Yourself is correct. 222 is followed by P4 whereas USF can field Stuart or a Flak HT. Since they need Jackson or Sherman they can't build too many lights. You can always replace the crew with echelons or just grab a bazooka with crew if you have to. The overall changes to M20 were good. It is still used and can surprise. I wish USF had a commander that would allow to get rid of unwanted vehicles for some resource return. It could also make it possible to make such vehicle viable.

222 is flexible.
-decent anti air
-decent AI across all ranges
-hardcounters ultra lights and stands up to lights below light tanks.
-best recon unit in game with spotting scopes

M20 is not.
-good AI at CQC
-bad AI at long range
-requires all 3 resources to function
-glorified mine layer

+1 for making Armour stock and giving it .50cal AT rounds.

Then a small price increase.

Edit: What's the late-game utility of the M20? I've started to get back into USF and I'm not sure if it's something worth keeping around?

I'm not sure reducing the mine price is something you want to see in 3vs3/+ because it is basicaly a non-doc Riegel mine, and everyone who has experienced it can tell you that immobilizing a vehicule is much stronger than engine damage and will not prevent but punish every flanking move.

If the discount is locked behind vet I think it's fair game. M20 isn't a very meta pick especially in team games, bringing a bonus to not only building it but managing to keep one around might bring it out of the shadows a bit.

I agree with the side skirts being overpriced, 70 munitions just to make it survivable with USF, when you're already struggling with ammo when the M20 comes out, when it needs to be useful is such a pain. Besides, as soon as the enemy team sees you have an M20, they're gonna invest in minesweepers if they're smart, because one of the only reasons to get an M20 right now is if you're trying to counter a sniper, or want to lay some disabling mines.

There's several solutions I can see to alleviate this.

One would be to remove the tech cost to get the M20 out in the first place, 50mp and 20 fuel and then having to spend another 240 / 20, and then 70 ammo on top of that is ridiculous. Maybe just make the upgrade cost for the Stuart alone, and bump up the price of the M20 slightly, as well as getting rid of the armor skirts and making them default.

Price increase to 280-300 mp 25-30 fuel. Still need to unlock the command post to get a stuart / tech to Major.
This way it actually has utility the moment it comes out, and I don't think timing will be an issue, if it is, build time can be increased slightly to compensate. Right now it takes 55 seconds to build an M20, you could increase that by 15+ seconds if timing is an issue. It also takes an additional 30 seconds to upgrade it with side skirts currently too.

I also like the idea of making the armor skirts cost mp / fuel instead of ammo as well, that would be a very nice compromise without doing significant changes.

Right now the ammo cost is just too damn high for it, especially since you're going to be spending so much ammo as USF on a combination of upgrades to riflemen (BARs, zooks on RE, grenades) as well as ammo to upgrade your Lt. with a zook if needed, having to spend that extra 70 ammo just makes it completely not worth getting.

Is there an argument for removing and replacing it with the M8 from recon support? Then find something else to go in that commander.

I don't think so, the M8 fills in a similar roll to the Stuart, not entirely but still similar enough that having the M8 and Stuart in the same building would be redundant. The M20 still has utility, it just needs some changes to make it relevant and useful again.

It was really good against assault gren builds.

It's still okay against ass gren builds. I still get the M20 occasionally. The biggest negative is that it gets destroyed easily by the 222 that comes at about the same time, and costs less if you factor in the side tech and armor skirts. I build them mostly to put mines on the flanks.

Then how comes nobody uses it anymore? Whereas 222 gets used almost every game. Now please dont give me a response like "because Stuart and Flak HT are OP"

It's still used occasionally by nobodies like me (rank 100 on a good day) against even worse nobodies (rank 1000+) with build orders of engie, mg, mg, engie, T2, Pgren (or throwing in the occasional ass gren or Pgren).

Against better players I don't build them because they'll have a 222 and I won't be able to get much use out of it. The side tech will slow me down. I'll likely end up behind in tech. I'll lose a bar upgrade that rifles will need, about when rifles start to need the upgrades. I'll be behind in getting a tank out, etc, etc. There are just too many risks for not a lot of benefit. The long range DPS isn't good, so your opponent having a unit with a snare makes it difficult to use.

If the discount is locked behind vet I think it's fair game. M20 isn't a very meta pick especially in team games, bringing a bonus to not only building it but managing to keep one around might bring it out of the shadows a bit.

This is not a question of fair or not, but more of a mechanic that was strong enough to be consider doctrinal for Ostheer and is vanilla for USF, the only drawback is a cost of 10 more ammo. And I can assume that even if people do not use it ( like the riegel mine while it belongs to one of the most popular commander) it is still god damn powerfull, and especialy in team games where mine are easier to value and protecting flank from Panther/T-34/85 rush is important. And when one of those hit this type of mine (often deep in ennemy territories), it can't drawback and often just die (because flanking isn't something that you support with AT-gun or slow infantry). And putting this mine with M20 is easier than with HT due to its greater view range and speed/manoeuvrability.

Once you understand the power of this mine, you understand the power of the M20. It is not a weaker 222 but a real infantry support vehicule and I'm against anything which could turn it into another brute force LV or cheaper mine.

I just can't believe what I'm reading sometimes. Ostheer stock light vehicle is a glass cannon and there are players who can use it really well. It has no crew, no smoke and no armour upgrade. It can't lay better version of a teller. I understand people would still say it is OP. Just incredible.

Your argument would make a lot more sense if M20 had a 20mm and had 320hp stock. But it doesn't.

Also, insinuating that Aerafield of all people isn't using his units correctly is a good meme.

Your argument would make a lot more sense if M20 had a 20mm and had 320hp stock. But it doesn't.

Also, insinuating that Aerafield of all people isn't using his units correctly is a good meme.

He is a great player of course Tbh I looked at what was written rather than who wrote it. I would be the last person to instruct him on how to play.

Still, allies have lights that can help deal even with mediums pretty well. M20 will always be meh by comparison. Imo the only thing one can do is probably make the armour upgrade stock. That would be a quick change. It would become sort of jeep on steroids I guess. I really have seen so many times people writing that ostheer needs to rely on tellers that I find it a bit funny that nobody writes that M20 should rely on its mine.

The mines on its own make it worth the cost imo, but I will admit I can't find much use for it beyond that