USF M20 dead?

Is it just me or this unit almost vanished in automatch? It was already kinda hard to pull off in 2v2+ before the nerfs anyway but now its nearly impossible.

I think the unit is not bad but it still has a few severe underlying issues:

- the bazooka removal was okay, but the double timer nerf was over the top I think, nerfing both the mechanized Lieutenant tech time as well as M20 build time. Now the unit arrives at same time or later than a 222. One of both timing nerfs should be (partially) reverted imo

- the armored skirts being overpriced af. I'd say either reduce mun cost from 70 to 45-50 or do it like the 223 upgrade for 221: The armored skirts now cost a tiny bit of manpower and fuel only.

I'm surprised it ever was considered for a pick over literally anything else with its pathetic long range DPS.

It does not matter that the unit is durable, if it needs to get into faust range before it can start dealing anything resembling damage and its way to expensive toy just to flank HMGs.

Unless you REALLY want immobilizing mines, there is just no point what so ever to ever get it over M15 or Stuart, which both can actually inflict casualties from safe distance.

Yes, it's vanished from the automatch and people don't build it outside the meme builds. Unit's timing is simply not worth it when it's hard-countered by a unit that comes 30secs later and only cost 10F more. Kind of like AEC-222 match-up but in that case, opponent needs to invest 45F more instead of only 10F more and AEC is, unlike 222, quite ineffective against infantry.
As you noted, armor skirts being overpriced is also a problem on a muni-intensive faction like USF.

Your suggestions are already pretty good but I'd like to add 1 more to consider:
-Give its .50cal AP rounds so that it isn't as hard-countered by 222 as it is now. Back then, zooks somehow discouraged 222 dives but right now, 222 has basically no reason to not dive right onto M20 and kill it in seconds. Even if you successfully snare it, you don't have the crew, unlike before, to follow-up with the kill.

However, this can be quite oppressive against OST when someone spams M20, so it's not as safe as your suggestions.
I agree that either its timing or armored skirts cost should be buffed (You can even make it stock tbh, given that how even with skirts, 222 has no problem penetrating it).

If any USF LV is in need of a change it's the WC51 because that thing does way too much damage with the 50 cal upgrade.

If any USF LV is in need of a change it's the WC51 because that thing does way too much damage with the 50 cal upgrade.

Except, it does not.
Its damage is in line with soviet M3.
If you feel otherwise, feel free to make another thread.
This one is about M20, you know, the unit no one have seen since last 18 months or so.

2 Timing nerfs and the removal of the Bazooka all in the same patch. They might as well have removed it from the game.

If its gonna come out within 30s of a 222, it could at least have its AT back to give it a fighting chance. The skirts are also badly overpriced, and no other LV needs to invest that much for basic functionality.

I use it to good effect. I think it should get the 320 HP by default and skirts should be cheaper, but its DPS and and scaling are completely fine, especially with the OP mines that can single handedly win games. It's more difficult to use on narrow maps because of AT gun walls, but I don't think it's in a need of an immediate buff.

I'm surprised it ever was considered for a pick over literally anything else with its pathetic long range DPS.

It does not matter that the unit is durable, if it needs to get into faust range before it can start dealing anything resembling damage and its way to expensive toy just to flank HMGs.

Unless you REALLY want immobilizing mines, there is just no point what so ever to ever get it over M15 or Stuart, which both can actually inflict casualties from safe distance.

It was really good against assault gren builds.

Except, it does not.
Its damage is in line with soviet M3.
If you feel otherwise, feel free to make another thread.
This one is about M20, you know, the unit no one have seen since last 18 months or so.

M20 is fine. Just makes you very vulnerable to the inevitable FlakHT/Luchs/222. If you buff its timing there will be no early game left, if you buff its performance the double light vehicle powerspike will snowball too hard.

WC51 isn't comparable with the m3 for obvious reasons. Should be nerfed imo.

Revert the build time nerf and either raise base penetration or change the vet 3 penetration bonus to something actually consequential. It adds a grand total of 1.5 penetration at minimum range and .5 at maximum for a total of 4.5 and 1.5 respectively. I have talked about the vet 3 penetration being basically worthless for a long time and have no idea why it hasn't been changed to an additive bonus at the very least (maybe make it a flat +2 penetration bonus for a total of 5/4/3 instead of 4.5/3/1.5)

Otherwise it's fine. It's really not a bad unit combat-wise, and its' USF's best tool against Ostheer snipers.

Revert the build time nerf and either raise base penetration or change the vet 3 penetration bonus to something actually consequential. It adds a grand total of 1.5 penetration at minimum range and .5 at maximum for a total of 4.5 and 1.5 respectively. I have talked about the vet 3 penetration being basically worthless for a long time and have no idea why it hasn't been changed to an additive bonus at the very least (maybe make it a flat +2 penetration bonus for a total of 5/4/3 instead of 4.5/3/1.5)

Otherwise it's fine. It's really not a bad unit combat-wise, and its' USF's best tool against Ostheer snipers.

this. it's by no means a no-brainer to get in every game but i've been using it to great effect vs early snipers. plus the mines can be game changing as said above.
i wouldn't mind seeing the build time nerf partially reverted, but apart from arriving maybe a tad bit too late the m20 is fine in my opinion. i'd also refrain from changing the skirt upgrade to require mp/fu instead since, right now, it at least forces you to decide between an early mine or the survivability boost.

I warned people removing zook would kill the unit, I said these multiple nerfs would leave it in the trashcan with WASP.

Zook gave you some defence against 222 and luch, which for the investment m20 needs is fair. It was a massive change not an "adjustment" as others claimed in the old USF thread.

It's like suddenly removing the cannon from KV-8

It was really good against assault gren builds.

Oh there is no question about that, it got good dps against anything it can hug with impunity, but if AI light is completely ineffective against mainline, I just can't consider it a good unit and being pidgeon holed into countering exclusively CQC and HMGs, well, I don't need M20 to do that, M15 and stuart will do just fine if slightly later.

M20 is fine. Just makes you very vulnerable to the inevitable FlakHT/Luchs/222. If you buff its timing there will be no early game left, if you buff its performance the double light vehicle powerspike will snowball too hard.

WC51 isn't comparable with the m3 for obvious reasons. Should be nerfed imo.

Realy ? Just take everything from USF and give us fun toy for axis fun.Nerf USF to hell. Basicly USF is most weak faction right now. İ just switched to soviet main for that reason.

The M20 is dead, it is now on the pile of units that shall never used again. It is better to ignore it and invest into either Tech or AAHT. We got to a point that it is better to pick to SOV/UKF instead of USF (2on2).

Maybe move m20 to hq and make it available after full officer tech but leave current stats then u can go half cpt and half lieutenant tier and then buy m20

Hmm but that leaves us with poor lieutenant

The m20 used to be very opressive against OH becouse of smoke zook and the potentail to double down with stuart. Which made it very hard for ostheer to deal with becouse pak wasnt cutting it against it. Now that the zook is gone i feel like the build time is a little bit too long. It is not a bad unit but it certainly could come out like 10-20 sec faster. One needs to be carefull though since 20 sec can mean a lot in the early game.

The other solution is to buff its utility by making the armored skirts free so you can use the ammo on mines. Possibly even give a ammo discount to the mines with vet

The m20 used to be very opressive against OH becouse of smoke zook and the potentail to double down with stuart. Which made it very hard for ostheer to deal with becouse pak wasnt cutting it against it. Now that the zook is gone i feel like the build time is a little bit too long. It is not a bad unit but it certainly could come out like 10-20 sec faster. One needs to be carefull though since 20 sec can mean a lot in the early game.

The other solution is to buff its utility by making the armored skirts free so you can use the ammo on mines. Possibly even give a ammo discount to the mines with vet

The Pak was buffed a similar time to when m20 was nerfed, Pak has much better tracking now.

It can be argued Ost have an easier time countering ultra lights and lights IMO. Better snare range, better atg and tellers. Cheap 222 that can eat greyhound, m20 etc.

It's just the lack of puma makes okw better vs light tanks and AEC matchup.

The m20 used to be very opressive against OH becouse of smoke zook and the potentail to double down with stuart. Which made it very hard for ostheer to deal with becouse pak wasnt cutting it against it. Now that the zook is gone i feel like the build time is a little bit too long. It is not a bad unit but it certainly could come out like 10-20 sec faster. One needs to be carefull though since 20 sec can mean a lot in the early game.

The other solution is to buff its utility by making the armored skirts free so you can use the ammo on mines. Possibly even give a ammo discount to the mines with vet

This is probably the correct approach although i don't think it's gonna change much when 1v1 meta for OH is fast T2, mostly with doctrinal infantry.

I think the situation is kinda similar to what happen with the 251 FHT. It needed a munition drop on the upgrade and later utility buffs in order to see play again.

I'm not sure reducing the mine price is something you want to see in 3vs3/+ because it is basicaly a non-doc Riegel mine, and everyone who has experienced it can tell you that immobilizing a vehicule is much stronger than engine damage and will not prevent but punish every flanking move.