Pioneers after early game

Ce's while slightly better fighting and are cheaper to buy get outdone by pio's in all other engineering/supporting aspects.

That is simply not true. CEs are better at engineering jobs as they do them equally well but at a cheaper price. I gave you a lot of arguments above.

And pio's are a real threat up close, more then ce's are at range.

No, they are not a real threat. They lose against frontline units as badly as CEs (though CEs charged by grens have chance behind cover). They are not viable combat units after first few minutes of the game unless upgraded with flamer where CEs are even better. This, however, has nothing to do with lategame problem of more manpower needed to replace and reinforce repair units. The fact that CEs are cheaper to reinforce and replace becomes a problem lategame.

Ce's are cheaper for a reason for the thousenth time.

It made sense before they were buffed, it does not make sense any more imo, especially lategame. It could probably make sense if they hadn't been given the possibility to increase repair speeds with sweepers. Because they did get it, the price and the reinforcement cost of pios seem unfairly higher.

And pio,s have more healing reinforcing options available then ce's ever will.

That is a complete nonsense and simply trolling. Merge is the best reinforcing option as it costs nothing (no building or any munitions, fuel, manpower spent to have access to it). Through merge you can reinforce them for even as little as 18 manpower and in combat or while repairing. The level of nonsesnse you are producing here is so high that I can't believe you are not doing it on purpose.

Because of this and the fact that ost dont need them up front means they get wiped less. Making the 170/21 vs 200/25 argumant a bit silly.

They get wiped as often as CEs, depending on the level of player's micro. Because pios need to close in to use their guns the chance for a wipe may actually be higher. Also the fact that merge can be used in combat makes saving CEs from a wipe easier.

Soviets dont get ai upgrades and nades by design. This means soviet inf is more durable but far less wipey then ost.

Another complete nonsense and moving even further away from the topic. Soviets have a lot of grenade options. Again, one prefers molotov, another prefers satchel and others prefer call in elite infantry grenades. It has nothing to do with the fact that pios are likely to drain more manpower for the ost player lategame than CEs for basically the same performance.

Ost have 5th or 6 man only via doctrines by design. Meaning less durable inf and recrewing team weapons is a bit harder. But they will wipe more then soviets.

Again not related to subject and just too general to make any sense. Soviets wipe very well. They are more manpower efficient as they wipe well but just more cheaply. Their manpower economy is often likely to give them advantage. The example from this thread where it is clearly visible that CEs are simply much cheaper in the long run to reinforce and build is just one example. The author of the post found a real balance issue that should be addressed.

Ost have 5th or 6 man only via doctrines by design. Meaning less durable inf and recrewing team weapons is a bit harder. But they will wipe more then soviets.

how so??? XD
pios have no combat use after early game, CEs have it
yes pios have more utility than CEs but it in 1v1 it is only tellers Smines and sandbags+wire
lol

Another complete nonsense and moving even further away from the topic. Soviets have a lot of grenade options. Again, one prefers molotov, another prefers satchel and others prefer call in elite infantry grenades. It has nothing to do with the fact that pios are likely to drain more manpower for the ost player lategame than CEs for basically the same performance.

Again not related to subject and just too general to make any sense. Soviets wipe very well. They are more manpower efficient as they wipe well but just more cheaply. Their manpower economy is often likely to give them advantage. The example from this thread where it is clearly visible that CEs are simply much cheaper in the long run to reinforce and build is just one example. The author of the post found a real balance issue that should be addressed.

ost gets wiped easier cuz they have only 4 models, rifle nades are trash and ez to dodge, soviets get shocks with bundle nade but faster and better.
molotovs suck, not worth 30munnies and 15fuel and 80mp

and CEs are just easier to use cuz they dont need to get close, and get shredded on approach, also flamer can be used lategame cuz of merge, pios flamer will just die instantly to 2bars rifles for example

how so??? XD
pios have no combat use after early game, CEs have it
yes pios have more utility than CEs but it in 1v1 it is only tellers Smines and sandbags+wire
lol

What kind of combat use have sweeper CEs?
Because you certainly, flame CEs and flame pios aren't struggling and if its so late game that all they do is repairing, then newsflash - CEs are going to be repair and mine only too.

What kind of combat use have sweeper CEs?
Because you certainly, flame CEs and flame pios aren't struggling and if its so late game that all they do is repairing, then newsflash - CEs are going to be repair and mine only too.

flamer CEs are used lategame cuz of merge, pios are not, sweeper pios dont do dmg, CEs help in fights a bit cuz they dont have to get closer, you pay 25mp for sweeping unit while sovs pay 21/20/18
flame pios are useless after early game when mainline does enough dmg to kill them on approach
in case you lose them 200 vs 170
you pay less for better performance

flamer CEs are used lategame cuz of merge, pios are not, sweeper pios dont do dmg, CEs help in fights a bit cuz they dont have to get closer, you pay 25mp for sweeping unit while sovs pay 21/20/18
flame pios are useless after early game when mainline does enough dmg to kill them on approach
in case you lose them 200 vs 170
you pay less for better performance

You are only going to massively bleed if you merge instead of just using conscripts and molos.
When infantries are vetted, CEs do absolutely nothing due to poor combat scaling.
If flame pios are being killed on approach, so are flame CEs, they both need to get to 20 range and their stock weapons are NOT dealing dmg primarily.
You pay more for better utility, there is no better unit to recrew team weapons then pios with their extra sight.

you can get close to unit and then keep merging into CE
you dont get molotovs
pios have good sight yes, only upperhand they have
still pios are not worth price

ost gets wiped easier cuz they have only 4 models, rifle nades are trash and ez to dodge, soviets get shocks with bundle nade but faster and better.
molotovs suck, not worth 30munnies and 15fuel and 80mp

Well - all the above abilities can be used effectively. I wouldn't be so extreme as to say that any of the above abilities are trash. All depends on your and your opponent's micro. I don't want to add any more arguments here as the thread is related to pios lategame.

and CEs are just easier to use cuz they dont need to get close, and get shredded on approach, also flamer can be used lategame cuz of merge, pios flamer will just die instantly to 2bars rifles for example

Not getting close with any engies mid-late game to mainline infantry is of course a good game mechanics. Both CEs and pios are used solely to do engineering duties lategame, as using them to fight will be ineffective and bleed you (unlike rear echelons, ukf sappers or OKW sturms - these could be utilized to have considerable fighting performance even lategame). Of course the price difference between CEs and pios is wrong (both reinforcing and purchase) imo. Maybe sidecapping is viable with pios and CEs lategame if you are careful not to lose them due to not paying attention.

IMO opinion both CEs and pios could be developed into becoming best engineering units lategeme as they are the worst combat units among engineers (e.i. they should get boosts to engineering capabilities rather than to fighting capabilities). I would probably allow pios to do crit repairs (that would justify their higher price and reinforcement cost than CEs). Another approach would be to make them just cheaper and more close to CEs lategame. If CEs were to be given crit repair their price would have to increase. I would also give crit repairs to echelons and take them away from vehicle crews to make USF player actually put some micro into making sure echelons are around if they wanted to remove the crit.

That is simply not true. CEs are better at engineering jobs as they do them equally well but at a cheaper price. I gave you a lot of arguments above.

No, they are not a real threat. They lose against frontline units as badly as CEs (though CEs charged by grens have chance behind cover). They are not viable combat units after first few minutes of the game unless upgraded with flamer where CEs are even better. This, however, has nothing to do with lategame problem of more manpower needed to replace and reinforce repair units. The fact that CEs are cheaper to reinforce and replace becomes a problem lategame.

It made sense before they were buffed, it does not make sense any more imo, especially lategame. It could probably make sense if they hadn't been given the possibility to increase repair speeds with sweepers. Because they did get it, the price and the reinforcement cost of pios seem unfairly higher.

That is a complete nonsense and simply trolling. Merge is the best reinforcing option as it costs nothing (no building or any munitions, fuel, manpower spent to have access to it). Through merge you can reinforce them for even as little as 18 manpower and in combat or while repairing. The level of nonsesnse you are producing here is so high that I can't believe you are not doing it on purpose.

They get wiped as often as CEs, depending on the level of player's micro. Because pios need to close in to use their guns the chance for a wipe may actually be higher. Also the fact that merge can be used in combat makes saving CEs from a wipe easier.

Another complete nonsense and moving even further away from the topic. Soviets have a lot of grenade options. Again, one prefers molotov, another prefers satchel and others prefer call in elite infantry grenades. It has nothing to do with the fact that pios are likely to drain more manpower for the ost player lategame than CEs for basically the same performance.

Again not related to subject and just too general to make any sense. Soviets wipe very well. They are more manpower efficient as they wipe well but just more cheaply. Their manpower economy is often likely to give them advantage. The example from this thread where it is clearly visible that CEs are simply much cheaper in the long run to reinforce and build is just one example. The author of the post found a real balance issue that should be addressed.

All i said is related to just giving pio's 5 men with nothing to show for it. Would be the same as just giving ce's and cons svt's stock with nothing to show for it.
Soviets are designed to do without them stock just as with nades. For ots its 4 men stock and 5 or more via doctrines only.

I gave you ample examples why pio's deserve a 200 mp price tag. And ce's 170 mp price tag. You just ignore faction traits for both and downplay everthing pio's can do and over value ce's fewer abilities and merge.
You fixate on a 30/4 mp price differene. Wich is regained in a minimal amount of time.
If you pay attention you will see when skills are simaler soviets have less mp to throw around then then the other factions in the late game mostly. You overblow the suposed problem. Ost and owk armour in general has a bigger chance to bounce but that escapes your mind because it means less damage taken wich in turn means less repair time.

Merge is not free. The mp you dont need for teching towards it goes to at nades molly's and healing. However the unit that can do it costs 240mp. You need to reinforce for 20/18 mp per model. You can easely loose the cons during merge making it cost 240 mp. You cant keep the squad that merged on the field mostly. You sacrifice its field presence. It a model swap and not healing as you claim. Its good for sure but not a no brainer as you try to make it out to be. Talking about nonsense. If it was soo good and free of cost or risk it would be used every game all game, but it isent.

And why in hell would you charge grens in vs ce's in cover? Grens quite handely have the long range advantidge.
Once pgrens hit the field pio's dont even need to be up front. Pgrens do a better job fighting at closer ranges then pio's ever will.
Ce's will melt just as pio's will late game. Axis are more long range oriented so even if the ce's can stay back a bit more they still melt the same.

Soviets wipe fine within their design but still wipe less often, cuz almost all their stock wiping power got nerfed hard or removed. To get wiping power such as others have they need doctrines. So does ost need doctrines to get durable infantry.

Just slapping a 5th man because others have it is bad design. That why i am glad cons got 7th man instead of dp28 or svt upgrade stock. It fits their design of quantity over quality and not just copying other factions.

how so??? XD
pios have no combat use after early game, CEs have it
yes pios have more utility than CEs but it in 1v1 it is only tellers Smines and sandbags+wire
lol

Your forget bunkers and healing and bonus vision xD lol.

Ce's dont have utility early on compared to pio's. That why their combat use lasts a bit longer imo. They dont have the hp rec acc nor dps to do so late game just as pio's. Neither will they have the utility of pio's. Just that they are cheaper. Nothing wrong except both vet very slowly at mid game esp pio's. Shared vet could solve this imo.

pios have no combat use after early game, CEs have it
yes pios have more utility than CEs but it in 1v1 it is only tellers Smines and sandbags+wire
lol

Some dude during a match:
Behold my mighty blob o'combat engineers with SVTs!!!!!!!

*le epic failure happens

-Few moments latergh-
"Hey! Lets open an UP CE Thread! Yay!

Now seriously, CE late combat power sucks. They are cheap at least and doesnt hurt as much to recrew and retrain them to repair.

....

Merge with combat engineers is most powerful in the early game as you can keep your flamethrower fighting enemy grens and pios a lot longer. In the late game, it's less impactful as due to lack of durability vet, combat engineers just die too fast to make it worth doing in most situations.


I'm ok with the pioneers being 200mp and CE being 170, even in the late game. What is a bit harder to swallow is 25mp reinforcement vs 21(or 20/18 if you use merge to save on mp).

It's the 25mp reinforcement that breaks the piggy bank in the late game, not the initial cost. That's almost as much as assault grens(26) FFS.

All i said is related to just giving pio's 5 men with nothing to show for it. Would be the same as just giving ce's and cons svt's stock with nothing to show for it.
Soviets are designed to do without them stock just as with nades. For ots its 4 men stock and 5 or more via doctrines only.

I gave you ample examples why pio's deserve a 200 mp price tag. And ce's 170 mp price tag. You just ignore faction traits for both and downplay everthing pio's can do and over value ce's fewer abilities and merge.
You fixate on a 30/4 mp price differene. Wich is regained in a minimal amount of time.
If you pay attention you will see when skills are simaler soviets have less mp to throw around then then the other factions in the late game mostly. You overblow the suposed problem. Ost and owk armour in general has a bigger chance to bounce but that escapes your mind because it means less damage taken wich in turn means less repair time.

Merge is not free. The mp you dont need for teching towards it goes to at nades molly's and healing. However the unit that can do it costs 240mp. You need to reinforce for 20/18 mp per model. You can easely loose the cons during merge making it cost 240 mp. You cant keep the squad that merged on the field mostly. You sacrifice its field presence. It a model swap and not healing as you claim. Its good for sure but not a no brainer as you try to make it out to be. Talking about nonsense. If it was soo good and free of cost or risk it would be used every game all game, but it isent.

And why in hell would you charge grens in vs ce's in cover? Grens quite handely have the long range advantidge.
Once pgrens hit the field pio's dont even need to be up front. Pgrens do a better job fighting at closer ranges then pio's ever will.
Ce's will melt just as pio's will late game. Axis are more long range oriented so even if the ce's can stay back a bit more they still melt the same.

Soviets wipe fine within their design but still wipe less often, cuz almost all their stock wiping power got nerfed hard or removed. To get wiping power such as others have they need doctrines. So does ost need doctrines to get durable infantry.

Just slapping a 5th man because others have it is bad design. That why i am glad cons got 7th man instead of dp28 or svt upgrade stock. It fits their design of quantity over quality and not just copying other factions.

Combat pios do not deserve their price tag, they rarely win engagements and require you to be thinking ahead, honestly i think *you're* the one overvaluing pios. Let's look at what they have

Less than mediocre cqc performance
sight range
tellers
flamer
THe 'advantages' you actually have that is usuable in a consistent manner is the sight range, tellers while good are also a big investment most of the time. Pios will rarely win against conscripts,rfiles,sections, but combat engineers?

They have
Really solid mid range damage
Scout car synergy
flamer
Democharge
tripwireflare
cost efficiency

The combat engineers can and will beat volks and grens pretty frequently if you play your cards right, set yourself behind some green cover and you now can easily force the grens to close the gap, bleed and maybe even lose the engagement. the fact that you even mention that grens specialize in long range and thus you should never engage in mid-short is nothing short of delusional.

You *have* to grab points
you *have* to get map control
You *have* to end engagements quickly more often than not lest they repostion or reinforce

When a gren squad pushes up and loses 1-2 models (frequently i might add in my postion but for the sake of the more common thing in this particular case let's say 1 model) and the engineer retreats. what happens?
He loses 30 mp

with pioneers you can't really do this because they're dedicated close range infantry which requires you to be thinking ahead, setting up ambushes *constantly* a borderline impossbile task, you can do it once or twice but thats it, and if you get a map like langres... forget it completetly.


Pioneers are worthess trash. they dont win engagements, they dont have any particularly notciable repair speed, they have sight but thats the only real tangible option in most games.

Merge with combat engineers is most powerful in the early game as you can keep your flamethrower fighting enemy grens and pios a lot longer. In the late game, it's less impactful as due to lack of durability vet, combat engineers just die too fast to make it worth doing in most situations.


I'm ok with the pioneers being 200mp and CE being 170, even in the late game. What is a bit harder to swallow is 25mp reinforcement vs 21(or 20/18 if you use merge to save on mp).

It's the 25mp reinforcement that breaks the piggy bank in the late game, not the initial cost. That's almost as much as assault grens(26) FFS.

True and merge also becomes more risky later on when tanks arrive. They can reguraly kill 2 models and in some cases just before you merge and cost you the cons squad. But that limited to in combat. For recrewing its really good when you get 7th man.

4 to 7 mp more per model is imo not gamebreaking. It takes seconds to gain that amount of mp. The mp soviets save with merge and cheaper reinforcing goes into replacing vehicles wich for the most part get destroyed easier/faster then axis tanks. This comes from 1v1 perspective ofcourse.

In my experience in the late game pio's just as ce's are not priorities to focus fire on mostly. Only with flamers or when repairing they are and they both will melt away when you do so.

Combat pios do not deserve their price tag, they rarely win engagements and require you to be thinking ahead, honestly i think *you're* the one overvaluing pios. Let's look at what they have

Less than mediocre cqc performance
sight range
tellers
flamer
THe 'advantages' you actually have that is usuable in a consistent manner is the sight range, tellers while good are also a big investment most of the time. Pios will rarely win against conscripts,rfiles,sections, but combat engineers?

They have
Really solid mid range damage
Scout car synergy
flamer
Democharge
tripwireflare
cost efficiency

The combat engineers can and will beat volks and grens pretty frequently if you play your cards right, set yourself behind some green cover and you now can easily force the grens to close the gap, bleed and maybe even lose the engagement. the fact that you even mention that grens specialize in long range and thus you should never engage in mid-short is nothing short of delusional.

You *have* to grab points
you *have* to get map control
You *have* to end engagements quickly more often than not lest they repostion or reinforce

When a gren squad pushes up and loses 1-2 models (frequently i might add in my postion but for the sake of the more common thing in this particular case let's say 1 model) and the engineer retreats. what happens?
He loses 30 mp

with pioneers you can't really do this because they're dedicated close range infantry which requires you to be thinking ahead, setting up ambushes *constantly* a borderline impossbile task, you can do it once or twice but thats it, and if you get a map like langres... forget it completetly.

Pioneers are worthess trash. they dont win engagements, they dont have any particularly notciable repair speed, they have sight but thats the only real tangible option in most games.

I do respect your points and you are a far better player then i will ever be. However i do play enough and study enough high level stream as i can to have an informed opnion on the game.

Ce's can beat grens indeed if you play the card correctly as you say. I cant remember seeing them beat volks though outside rng favoring them without a flamer and stg,s for volks.
Their dps and hp is only 2/3,s of a conscript squad. And that is what they are in combat without a flamer. a vet 2 2/3 strength cons squad tops.
That they sync well with the scout car is great indeed but that lasts 1 or 2 minutes mostly.
Imo the demo is pretty bad right now. Its not a strentgh anymore, there is no use for it outside of cheesing when you are ahead. even then every inf unit can see it from a save distance with minimal effort. you have to go out of your way to hide it. and you know where it cant be placed anymore. That demo's are almost never used says enough.

Pio,s beating main lines takes a lot more effort indeed. They can punish cons rifles etc but only if you get the drop on them indeed. Imo them having better utility makes up for this.
Pio,s sync better with team weapons and esp recrewing them keeping the extra vision range, that lasts the game mostly. that extra vision however small compared to actual scout units allows you to turn your at guns/mg's/inf etc to face the threats slightly faster or get the last shot off to secure the kill on a tank with a pak for example.
the teller while are a big investment for ost, its still cheaper then a demo and is only revealed by sweepers and not by every thing with legs, it doesnt detonate on inf and one shots all lights if they hit it without sweepers present. on average a teller will pay off more then a demo.

to sum my opnion up.
imo ce's combat scale,s to mid game at most, upgraded and vetted main lines and doctrinal inf will decimate them from this point on. they cant build sandbags, mgnests or scout better then a normal mainline. and their demo is a meme at this point. they lost their sync with the scout car at the start of the game at this point in the game. so imo late game they are less impactfull.

pio's combat power is very situational from the start and gets even worse as the game drags on. but their utilities and synergys last the game. imo you dont get pio,s for combat you get them for the latter reasons and repair obviously. every unit can benefit from them however slightly. the tank they fix, the weapon they crew or are next to, heal if needed. and one mine can kill the mid game of allies if your lucky.

comparing demos with the tellers lol
CEs can win with any mainline besides riflemen or at least bleed them quite hardly, the only utility as fighiting unit pios have is killing CEs and cons at very close distances in very limited situations in early game
the only thing they have is just vision, still they should have some combat use or not be as expensive

comparing demos with the tellers lol
CEs can win with any mainline besides riflemen or at least bleed them quite hardly, the only utility as fighiting unit pios have is killing CEs and cons at very close distances in very limited situations in early game
the only thing they have is just vision, still they should have some combat use or not be as expensive

Vision and healing. And sandbags. And close range DPS enough that they are an immediate threat to a weapon team they get up to. Assymetric balance has the CE easier to generate combat value from but less potential and less utility. 30mp is more than fair for the disparity.

Vision and healing. And sandbags. And close range DPS enough that they are an immediate threat to a weapon team they get up to. Assymetric balance has the CE easier to generate combat value from but less potential and less utility. 30mp is more than fair for the disparity.

u mean the vet 1 ? or the bunker than can be built by green too ?

sandbags are there cause u can't put them on green, i u want they can be removed from cons and put on CE

they have worse dos than RE and can't go to 5 men, UKF just got a non doc CQC cause they did not have good CQC but by ur logic RE would have been enough

u mean the vet 1 ? or the bunker than can be built by green too ?

Or maybe the teller mine? The best mine any engineer can place? The bonus vision?

You keep leaving out the fact that they can kill light tanks with a single well placed mine, that's pretty useful

I'm with you if you wanna lower pio vet requirements. If you're gonna say they don't have enough compared to CEs, then i have to disagree. A lot

they have enough compared to them, problem is they cost more