Pioneers after early game

No you are wrong.


Try hitting a vehicles with AT grenade from RO and see how fast it vets.

And since flamer in your opinion are "Kings" the king of vetting are CE with their lower XP value, their superior Mosins, merge and higher XP value targets.



Not really and for 225/90 units it probably UP.

Doctrinal bolstered Ro.E with 210/60 cost are better and come with snare.

Assault engineers wipe the floor with pioneers and are available from CP 0.

This is where your bias is obvious

Snare is not a perk when your mainline infantry completely lacks AT grenades. One or two snare squads max vs 4 snare squads for any other faction.

Flamers DO vet faster than UKF RE in an average match, this is plain to see in any 1vs1 cast. PIATS even if unlocked don't come until late midgame at earliest when flamer pios are already vet2

You also ignore the fact Pios and CE are fielded earlier than UKF RE. Funny how you list all the great benefits allies have but you conveniently forget to mention any faults or things they lack

This is where your bias is obvious

This is where your bias is obvious.

Snare is not a perk when your mainline infantry completely lacks AT grenades. One or two snare squads max vs 4 snare squads for any other faction.

Did I claim that the faction has an advantage because Ro.E. have snare? I did not, so stop twisting what I have said.

Do Ro.E have an advantage over Pioneer because they have a snare? yes they do.
Does the snare reward them with lots of XP ? yes it does.

Flamers DO vet faster than UKF RE in an average match, this is plain to see in any 1vs1 cast. PIATS even if unlocked don't come until late midgame at earliest when flamer pios are already vet2

That is simply because people do not bother with Ro.E and spam IS. Has nothing to do with flamers and Piats do not magically come, a player decided when and if he wants to invest in them.

And Pioneer do not magically become vet 2.

You also ignore the fact Pios and CE are fielded earlier than UKF RE. Funny how you list all the great benefits allies have but you conveniently forget to mention any faults or things they lack

I did not ignore anything. You have simply reached for straws by talking about 5 men flamer pioneers. I simply pointed out your flaw.

Do you have any idea when 5 men Pionenrs with flamer hit the field?

Sounds amazing until you realize vet 0 Guards are far superior to vet 0 cons and cons squads have better veterancy, so merging into guards essentially gimps your squad.

To put it in perspective I tested vet 3 guards vs vet 3 guards with 5 merged models and the non merged squad won consistently with 50% health left.

Exactly, yet I find people keep referring to that awful merge guide on reddit that recommends merging into guards 24/7 and not reinforcing them. This is what happens when rank 600s make community guides.

I'd like to see these tests. Regardless though, I still standby what I said about the cost effectiveness. And I'd also like to add that this is from my own play experience and not from some guide on reddit or steam forums.

To those who justify pios price as they "do" more than CEs:

Let's look at the stock conscript squad - 1. Oorah! 2. sandbags 3. tripwireflare 4. molotov 5. at snare 6. stock 7th man. 7. ability to merge

Now it is a gren's squad turn - 1. build bunkers 2. at snare 3. riflenade 4. can be upgraded with an mg

To be remembered: Cons get 6 men stock while grens get only 4.

The price - it is the same (240mp). I understand that now all forum members who believe that a unit that "does more" should be more expensive will advocate increasing the price on conscripts.

This is where your bias is obvious

Snare is not a perk when your mainline infantry completely lacks AT grenades...

I cant believe what im reading...
Fallshrimjaeger lost their snare for no reason then. Gren and volks and conscripts (all the non-AT rifles variants) are not worth having snares!

Seriously, talking about bias you simply lost it there SHF. Just stop it there.

Snares ARE important. It defines what "CORE" or mainline infantry is. Thats why UKF got snares on their RE, becuse the tool is a CORE perk.

Now, please leave offtopics aside and focus on Pios Xp values as it was mentioned before. Late game presence of pios could use veterancy. Maybe rework the vet bonuses into a more utility version of Pio. To contrast Sturmpios as a core combatant engineer unit

I know im late to the party but how about that idea:
- Make the Pioneer support package from "Strategic Reserves" nocdoctrinal.
- It would be a nice buff and dont cause any balance issues. Not even the hardest allied fanboys have ever complained about it.

The price - it is the same (240mp). I understand that now all forum members who believe that a unit that "does more" should be more expensive will advocate increasing the price on conscripts.

People were saying an engineer that has more utility should be more expensive. Given that the entire job of an engineer is to provide utility...

Now your talking about mainline infantry. Completely different conversation

Also btw, you forgot to mention cons have to invest in side-techs for their snare/worse grenade. They already are more expensive than grens

Reduce pio vet requirements. That's all that's needed

To those who justify pios price as they "do" more than CEs:

Let's look at the stock conscript squad - 1. Oorah! 2. sandbags 3. tripwireflare 4. molotov 5. at snare 6. stock 7th man. 7. ability to merge

Now it is a gren's squad turn - 1. build bunkers 2. at snare 3. riflenade 4. can be upgraded with an mg

To be remembered: Cons get 6 men stock while grens get only 4.

The price - it is the same (240mp). I understand that now all forum members who believe that a unit that "does more" should be more expensive will advocate increasing the price on conscripts.

You forgot to mention the part, where cons are much worse in actual combat and can't trade efficiently vs anything without one of their weapon upgrades, while pios have target size and DPS perfectly in line with all other engineer squads around their price.

You forgot to mention the part, where cons are much worse in actual combat and can't trade efficiently vs anything without one of their weapon upgrades, while pios have target size and DPS perfectly in line with all other engineer squads around their price.

Not to Mention like... Molotov and AT nades are absolutely extra-the price paid directly inflates the cost of cons as it does nothing else. Rifle nades for grens are locked behind vet, molotovs are EXTRA. You build 4 cons and get molotovs those cons don't cost 240mo they cost 280mp. Strap in the snare and suddenly your 240 mp initial cost covers a lot less.

Not to Mention like... Molotov and AT nades are absolutely extra-the price paid directly inflates the cost of cons as it does nothing else. Rifle nades for grens are locked behind vet, molotovs are EXTRA. You build 4 cons and get molotovs those cons don't cost 240mo they cost 280mp. Strap in the snare and suddenly your 240 mp initial cost covers a lot less.

Dont grens require tech to even produce? And tech that isnt necessary if you don't plan to use grens?


And going by the utility argument that's been brought up, conscripts should be much more expensive since they have non doc sprint have merge and can build sandbags.
Personally I dont think conscript cost needs to be nerfed but theres no question they provide more utility then grens.

Dont grens require tech to even produce? And tech that isnt necessary if you don't plan to use grens?


And going by the utility argument that's been brought up, conscripts should be much more expensive since they have non doc sprint have merge and can build sandbags.
Personally I dont think conscript cost needs to be nerfed but theres no question they provide more utility then grens.

Except it isn't cut and dried for grens like it is cons. That 80mp and 10fuel to unlock grens also unlocks the sniper and mortar. The price paid for molotov and at nade is 100% increasing the cost of cons and nothing else it adds no new units and it progresses you towards armour in the opposite direction.

Utility is there to counteract combat potential that's the purpose of the utility argument in the pio/CE discussion. The two both attribute to price though many want to zero in on combat only. Cons without upgrades and without side grades are worse than grens. The have sprint sandbags and merge, but are easier to hit, less accurate and don't have a snare (or bunkers for that matter) they also get their "weapon" upgrade much later. Their initial price reflects their generalist nature. Their full potential comes after fully teching and sinking extra costs JUST for cons.
Meanwhile grens start nearly fully equipped and to unlock their nade they unlock a tech that puts them closer to armour AND unlocks pgrens.

I thought people built ostheer t1 for snipers

You forgot to mention the part, where cons are much worse in actual combat and can't trade efficiently vs anything without one of their weapon upgrades, while pios have target size and DPS perfectly in line with all other engineer squads around their price.

It seems that it is actually You who forgot that most players stopped using grens because they are so ineffective. So you are simply wrong. Cons are better than grens both at fighting and utility. Pios are too expensive if you compare them with CEs, echelons+crews combo, UKF sappers - especially lategame. The pios dps is irrelevent past the first few minutes of the gameplay - their engineering capabilities are used then. Lategame sappers or echelons will have significantly better combat+utility potential lategame, which is even worse as pios are similarly priced but will never be that potent (just to remind You: echelons will become 5 men stock at vet three, can eqip, for example, two bazookas and a sweeper and become a pzgren squad without grenades but with repairs for just 200manpower. Sappers will become stock five men with bolster and can get weapon upgrades and bonuses with anvil plus can equip any weapons from racks. They have a snare, mines and build a lot of different structures - all for just 210manpower).

The author of the thread is right - pios look terribly bad in comparison and this is imbalanced.

I know im late to the party but how about that idea:
- Make the Pioneer support package from "Strategic Reserves" nocdoctrinal.
- It would be a nice buff and dont cause any balance issues. Not even the hardest allied fanboys have ever complained about it.

Las but not least

The problem, it seems, is first to illustrate how weak pios actually are compared to other engineering units. Right now many allied-only-players-forum-members don't see how much more ostheer has to pay for their engineering compared to allied factions. I guess a satisfying/balanced solution can come only after they actually see how imbalanced it is at the moment.

Except it isn't cut and dried for grens like it is cons.

But when it comes to pios I understand it is cut and dried in your opinion... Supposedly more utility means they should be more expensive to reinforce and purchase than CEs, even when UKF can pay 210manpower for 5 men sappers with much more utility and USF pays 200manpower for echelons that have more utility, and basically the faction will use free crews to repair anyways. This you don't see - but you believe that cons are worse/too expensive when compared to grens despite many players say cons are almost OP at this point in the game.

People were saying an engineer that has more utility should be more expensive. Given that the entire job of an engineer is to provide utility...

Now your talking about mainline infantry. Completely different conversation

Also btw, you forgot to mention cons have to invest in side-techs for their snare/worse grenade. They already are more expensive than grens

Reduce pio vet requirements. That's all that's needed

1. Not a different conversation. Especially that people against making pios more competitive or cheaper keep suggesting they do more and thus should be more expensive than CEs. The same people don't see that echelons and sappers can be much more deadly lategame and cost as much as pios. Mainline infantry, especially conscripts, often have more abilities and it is not always/almost never reflected in the price.

2. Vet requirements won't do the trick imo although they are unjustly higher for pios than fro CEs. It won't be enough. The goal would be either to make pios as useful as, say, sappers OR make them simply cheaper to be more disposable and more easily replaced when lost. I like the latter solution better as ost can really be completely outplayed if they can't replace their engineers. It is especially visible against USF - because of crews. But also against Soviets to a lesser but significant degree - due to cheaper cost of replacing and reinforcing CEs on top of many other non stock repair abilities.

Dont grens require tech to even produce? And tech that isnt necessary if you don't plan to use grens?


And going by the utility argument that's been brought up, conscripts should be much more expensive since they have non doc sprint have merge and can build sandbags.
Personally I dont think conscript cost needs to be nerfed but theres no question they provide more utility then grens.

That tech still costs less and offers other units too...

1. Not a different conversation. Especially that people against making pios more competitive or cheaper keep suggesting they do more and thus should be more expensive than CEs. The same people don't see that echelons and sappers can be much more deadly lategame and cost as much as pios. Mainline infantry, especially conscripts, often have more abilities and it is not always/almost never reflected in the price.

2. Vet requirements won't do the trick imo although they are unjustly higher for pios than fro CEs. It won't be enough. The goal would be either to make pios as useful as, say, sappers OR make them simply cheaper to be more disposable and more easily replaced when lost. I like the latter solution better as ost can really be completely outplayed if they can't replace their engineers. It is especially visible against USF - because of crews. But also against Soviets to a lesser but significant degree - due to cheaper cost of replacing and reinforcing CEs on top of many other non stock repair abilities.

So usf and ukf spending recourses unlocking just the racks to able able to put upgrades at about 80 to 90 muni to put double upgrades on their engineers, dont add up to their cost? Ukf lacking cqc entirely outside sappers and them not being in t0 does not allow them to have good dps at closer ranges?

Cons have more utility far more utility then grens. And they do cost more then grens to get them fully kitted out. People tend to forget cons need a squads worth of mp and fuel to unlock a crappy nade and snare just for them and not gives extra units.
Even the weaker maxim is more expensive then the mg42 considering you need to tech to it.

You play all faction you say? Then why leave out addional costs like these? Must an primarely axis player me thinks. And yes i primarely play allies but i at least try to be as objectivly as i possibly can.

So usf and ukf spending recourses unlocking just the racks to able able to put upgrades at about 80 to 90 muni to put double upgrades on their engineers, dont add up to their cost? Ukf lacking cqc entirely outside sappers and them not being in t0 does not allow them to have good dps at closer ranges?

Cons have more utility far more utility then grens. And they do cost more then grens to get them fully kitted out. People tend to forget cons need a squads worth of mp and fuel to unlock a crappy nade and snare just for them and not gives extra units.
Even the weaker maxim is more expensive then the mg42 considering you need to tech to it.

You play all faction you say? Then why leave out addional costs like these? Must an primarely axis player me thinks. And yes i primarely play allies but i at least try to be as objectivly as i possibly can.

I honestly never thought I'd see a thread complaining about a T0 utility unit not being commandos later on. This whole thread is filled with more BS than a ranch in Texas.

I honestly never thought I'd see a thread complaining about a T0 utility unit not being commandos later on. This whole thread is filled with more BS than a ranch in Texas.

Regret you weren't here, when axis bois kept screaming HMG42 was bad, because when soviets stole it, it was impossible to counter during first 6 months after release.

achpawel can't even refute arguments anymore, he just repeats the same things for last 5 pages and if someone completely shoots down his argument, he just repeats it more times.

That's not even stubbornness anymore, that's plain denial of reality.