Unbalanced pay commanders

Most humorous part to me is watching people QQ about losing to T-70s when they're trying to play gren gren gren HMG mortar extended tier 1. Sorry, but I'm not sorry that that isn't going to counter a T70. You know it is coming, it is obvious that it is coming - tech sooner to compensate.

I'm not saying the doctrine shouldn't be changed, I think it should, but the game isn't doomed because one commander warps the meta-game. Unless you're in the top 25 or so pretty much every "balance" issue can be overcome by playing better. I know it is hard to admit and easy to QQ about "pay2win" commanders but at the end of the day learning to adapt and counter builds is part of any RTS.

I agree that adapting is a good option, but in this case it is not the right answer. I want to know, how do I know he is going fast t70? He gets to know as soon as the game starts, but I have already committed at least one unit to the field before I can guess that he is. By the time I know I have two units, so I am stuck picking only at the third or forth unit. This cripples the meta badly because I have to assume the worst and plan from there, which locks me into a stagnant build order.

The P2W stuff is fair in this case because one player is getting to set the game strategy and hold an advantage because he purchased a new commander. Even if they nerf the commanders later they gave a player an advantage because of a purchase at one point.

I disagree with the slandering of Relic or community members (that is not right no matter what your feelings are), but I am seriously considering leaving COH2 as a result of these commanders. This is now the second time this has happened and we have more on the way. I am tired of waiting to play the balanced game I thought I purchased.

You know the T-70 is coming because of what you've seen on the map. Here are the common builds I've used and seen people use:

Sniper + M3 with one combat engi to cap, then one combat engi to build T3 once fuel is high enough. No conscripts.

3 Cons, retreat engi build t1/t3 or t2/t3 - this is what I've seen Sib/Ivan using and what I use in 1v1s. The most obvious sign (since you might not always be able to see all their units) is that they do not tech molotovs - if you've only seen a few con squads AND you're not dodging molotovs - prepare yourself.

Ciez: What conventional build do you recommend then as an adaptation?

http://www.coh2.org/topic/10515/unbalanced-pay-commanders/post/95143

I beat it with schrecks in a 250 halftrack followed up by a PaK using assault gren doctrine (yes yes another paid commander) but the general trend is the same. Save your munitions for Schrecks, get a PaK and maybe a 2cm 222. Use this to stall for a Stug III or Pz4.

My general build to counter it would be 3-4 grens (depending on fuel control/timing) NO LMGs and NO rifle nades. Pgrens + Schrecks, halftrack, PaK and see from there. PaKs really are your best friend against this doctrine because they'll be EXTREMELY limited on infantry so you don't have to worry as much about infantry flanks. They doctrine really pushes them into mass amounts of tanks, if you force them into an infantry game from so much AT, they're destined to lose.

Every time I've seen Ivan or anyone else stream win with a very fast T-70 the opponent has been very unprepared. Any time I've won, the opponents have been very unprepared.

That being said... I haven't lost yet while playing Soviet Industry, but I also haven't lost to it while playing as Germans (to be fair I've played a lot more games with Sov Industry so far than against it though).

Try fighting this commander with mechanised doctrine and you ll find that it is a far more uphill battle , and still you said it yourself , you countered a p2w commander with another commander that is also not free so what is your point . Also about 222 siberian ownwed a vet 3 222 with a t70 and 2 or 3 t7os can easilly zerg a schreckgren andan atg

I beat it with schrecks in a 250 halftrack followed up by a PaK using assault gren doctrine (yes yes another paid commander) but the general trend is the same. Save your munitions for Schrecks, get a PaK and maybe a 2cm 222. Use this to stall for a Stug III or Pz4.

My general build to counter it would be 3-4 grens (depending on fuel control/timing) NO LMGs and NO rifle nades. Pgrens + Schrecks, halftrack, PaK and see from there. PaKs really are your best friend against this doctrine because they'll be EXTREMELY limited on infantry so you don't have to worry as much about infantry flanks. They doctrine really pushes them into mass amounts of tanks, if you force them into an infantry game from so much AT, they're destined to lose.

Every time I've seen Ivan or anyone else stream win with a very fast T-70 the opponent has been very unprepared. Any time I've won, the opponents have been very unprepared.

That being said... I haven't lost yet while playing Soviet Industry, but I also haven't lost to it while playing as Germans (to be fair I've played a lot more games with Sov Industry so far than against it though).

I see your point, but by the time you get all this there won't be only 1 T-70, and T-34s are probably un the way. PAKs are also very map dependant: While this may ok on smaller maps, good luck doing this by the numbers on Semois or Kharkov. The very concept of having to use a commander to beat another is also very silly, you only have three to choose from.

It's beatable, sure. But it's unbalanced and, worse, not fun to play against at all.

people should start realising that nothing is for free and regarding the $/hour gaming is apparently cheap.

@Ciez

If you are countering the fast T70 spam its only because the other guy is A) much worse than you are B) played very badly that game. You can have counters to 1 T70 but by the time the 2nd and 3rd one arrive you are screwed because in about 2 seconds they can kill a Shrek or Pak with little effort. You are forced to either spam purely AT and even if you do there is a chance he can swoop in from the side and evaporate everything instantly. Second scenario is you spam AT units and then he just responds by going infantry heavy and then you are pretty bummed. So post some replays consistently beating a high level player using the fast T70 strat and maybe then you'll be taken seriously.

@Ciez

If you are countering the fast T70 spam its only because the other guy is A) much worse than you are B) played very badly that game. You can have counters to 1 T70 but by the time the 2nd and 3rd one arrive you are screwed because in about 2 seconds they can kill a Shrek or Pak with little effort. You are forced to either spam purely AT and even if you do there is a chance he can swoop in from the side and evaporate everything instantly. Second scenario is you spam AT units and then he just responds by going infantry heavy and then you are pretty bummed. So post some replays consistently beating a high level player using the fast T70 strat and maybe then you'll be taken seriously.

Hard to control who I get in automatch but I'm more than happy to test things out and have friendly scrims with people - CieZ23 on steam if anyone feels like adding me. I don't want people to get the wrong idea so I'll go ahead and clarify - I *do* think the doctrine needs to be changed, however I *don't* think it is a "pay2win" "freewinlol" doctrine. It certainly isn't the easiest thing to pull off, but it certainly isn't impossible.

@Ciez

If you are countering the fast T70 spam its only because the other guy is A) much worse than you are B) played very badly that game. You can have counters to 1 T70 but by the time the 2nd and 3rd one arrive you are screwed because in about 2 seconds they can kill a Shrek or Pak with little effort. You are forced to either spam purely AT and even if you do there is a chance he can swoop in from the side and evaporate everything instantly. Second scenario is you spam AT units and then he just responds by going infantry heavy and then you are pretty bummed. So post some replays consistently beating a high level player using the fast T70 strat and maybe then you'll be taken seriously.

+1!
Thats what I was talking about. People dont seem to understand what this thread is actually about. You are forced to go full AT support and when you do that, a side attack with infantry and some support can simply come in from the side and wipe out everything. GG WP

+1!
Thats what I was talking about. People dont seem to understand what this thread is actually about. You are forced to go full AT support and when you do that, a side attack with infantry and some support can simply come in from the side and wipe out everything. GG WP

Well, the inherent flaw with this assumption is that the Soviet Industry doctrine can actually field infantry any reasonable amount of infantry. Spoiler alert - it can't.

Relic has deviated so far from what made vCoh so special, the game is hardly recognizable anymore. Having played this franchise almost since the beginning it is difficult to see such a well polished, beautiful game turned into this. I'm not trying to be over dramatic here, it is genuinely sad.

vCoh had so much longevity because it was polished, well balanced (save for a few hiccups after ToV came out) and you never felt cheated after a loss. The game stayed fresh for so many years because there was always something I could point to that I could have done better in order to win. The meta game was simple, yet extremely deep. There were only 3 doctrines, and yet the game never got stale. CoH isn't the franchise to try and turn into a C&C spamfest(*COUGH*Soviet Industry). If I lost, it was because I made mistakes that I could learn from.

With this most recent patch, CoH2 has crossed a threshold it cannot return from. It will never be the polished, strategically exquisite game that its predecessor was. Its practically arcade mode now, it feels like a mod. It would be one thing if CoH2 was released with all of the current content made available for everyone. However, this current system SCREAMS money grab. During the beta, relic promised they wouldn't release game changing commanders for money, and that everyone would play under the same fundamental structure. How can they claim to live up to that statement when they have released Soviet Industry, and Elite Troops? Both of which fundamentally change the way the game is played, and you have to pay for it. But wait, there's more to come! (http://www.coh2.org/topic/10540/stills-from-the-livestream-showing-new-upcoming-commanders)

That doesn't even touch on the now impossible job of balance. It took years to iron out all of the kinks in vcoh, and they weren't releasing new units and abilities once every 2 months. At this rate, the meta will never have time to settle, and we will never get the wonderful opportunity to fully learn how to counter the new units and commanders. By the time the meta has settled, everyone will be on to the new FOM units. People are going to turn away from the game(if this keeps up I know I am) when they feel cheated by being handed a loss before the game has even started. Your turning the game into an arms race of commander choices. A match shouldn't hinge on commander choice, especially when purchased commanders change the game so fundamentally. Too late to come back now though, I guess that's why they called it turning point.

You know the T-70 is coming because of what you've seen on the map. Here are the common builds I've used and seen people use:

Sniper + M3 with one combat engi to cap, then one combat engi to build T3 once fuel is high enough. No conscripts.

3 Cons, retreat engi build t1/t3 or t2/t3 - this is what I've seen Sib/Ivan using and what I use in 1v1s. The most obvious sign (since you might not always be able to see all their units) is that they do not tech molotovs - if you've only seen a few con squads AND you're not dodging molotovs - prepare yourself.

'


So a Soviet player builds 3 conscripts and no molotovs and the German player has to assume he is rushing a 6 minute T70? That still leads to an extremely rigid list of build options for the German player, as a 3 conscript start is still extremely common.

I agree that adapting is a good option, but in this case it is not the right answer. I want to know, how do I know he is going fast t70? He gets to know as soon as the game starts, but I have already committed at least one unit to the field before I can guess that he is. By the time I know I have two units, so I am stuck picking only at the third or forth unit. This cripples the meta badly because I have to assume the worst and plan from there, which locks me into a stagnant build order.

The P2W stuff is fair in this case because one player is getting to set the game strategy and hold an advantage because he purchased a new commander. Even if they nerf the commanders later they gave a player an advantage because of a purchase at one point.

I disagree with the slandering of Relic or community members (that is not right no matter what your feelings are), but I am seriously considering leaving COH2 as a result of these commanders. This is now the second time this has happened and we have more on the way. I am tired of waiting to play the balanced game I thought I purchased.

I share the same overall sentiments. The bolded part highlights the specific issues with these new commanders.

Well, the inherent flaw with this assumption is that the Soviet Industry doctrine can actually field infantry any reasonable amount of infantry. Spoiler alert - it can't.

If all you have is infantry AT, it only takes a handful of conscripts to truly hurt you, or at least cap all around your AT defense. Or heavens forbid, a well-microed sniper. Kiss those PGrens and PAKS goodbye. -80 MP is not that dramatic.

And anyway, a doctrine should never, ever force such a drastic change of gameplay. Beyond the balance issues, it's just horribly designed in general.

How are they going to balance the T70 now? If they tone it down because it is too strong coming out at the 6 minute industry mark, then it will be useless for anyone not using the commander.

Creating one doctrine that changes the point in the game in which you can expect to see armor makes for a balance nightmare. If balance has been an issue up for this point, can we really trust relic to turn it around and balance their game, while simultaneously releasing even more new and potentially(likely)unbalanced content?

Relic has deviated so far from what made vCoh so special, the game is hardly recognizable anymore. Having played this franchise almost since the beginning it is difficult to see such a well polished, beautiful game turned into this. I'm not trying to be over dramatic here, it is genuinely sad.

+1

Just played my first 2v2 vs Sov Industry with the new noob-mode hi-res start.

Not only is it unwinnable, but it truly is nothing more than an arcade game with the amount of spam on the field so early. I'm really, really sad. I defended COH2 to folks who questioned it, and now I feel like an ass.

This is the most broken crap ever. Even Kangeroos weren't as bad as this in COH.

This was my favorite game of all time. It's so painful.

I think the best solution would be to SPLIT the multiplayer in TWO portions.
First is for use of original commanders ONLY.
Second is for use of original commanders PLUS dlc ones.

If someone wants to play old school - choose first option in the game menu.
If someone wants to use these OP commanders for different gameplay - choose DLC option.

How simply it is?
Let me know what you think.

That is an awesome idea. This needs to happen.

Like in old VCoH, there was a way to distinguish ppl who wanted to climb the ladder with arcade players (lobby).

In answer to both the 'adapt and accept p2w' and the 'IT'S A CONSPIRACY TO MAKE MONEY' lines of argument:

Personally, I don't think it's a conspiracy so much as these commanders not having been tested and adjusted properly before release - the same thing was obviously the case with the last batch of DLC commanders as well. (I cannot imagine that beta players didn't provide feedback on the four minute T-70, for instance, yet it's come out in the state it's in).

I don't mind putting new blood off the game if it's never going to be in a good state of balance on account of the continual releasing of unbalanced, inadequately tested commanders. This is more distressing because, commanders aside, Relic have been consistently improving and working on the game.

I also don't want to play a game I've already paid for myself because I know that with 2 T-70s before I would previously have gotten one, I should beat anyone of my own skill level consistently, and vice versa.

Personally, my hope is that Relic adjust the German Elite Troops and Soviet Industry Tactics to both have their first ability at 1 or 2cps so as the other features of the tree can be more obvious and they don't mess up the early game as much as they do, given that unlike the (in my view) still badly implemented Ostruppen and Assault Grenadier doctrines, neither of them is intended just to open up the early game options. Once that's done maybe the rest of the two doctrines can be properly balance tested.

To what extent they can effectively balance a paid doctrine (therefore, they probably won't want to remove abilities it was advertised as having) which was released with two of the best existing Ostheer commander abilities while keeping the new abilities interesting and effective is hard to know but I think at least it can be brought into line.

Edit: Tokarev, with the size of the playerbase being what it is I don't think that's a workable idea. Yeah, in an ideal world you'd have some catering for a vanilla option but I don't think it's actually practical right now.

If your that bent on it create a steam group and an in game chat channel for people who do not want to play against DLC, then just host your own games.

Well not a shocker, it was pretty well established that CoH2 was going to be a p2w game when it was announced that there was going to be DLC commanders.

Relic like any other company out for money will lie their teeths out to their community, They said from the start that CoH2 will not be p2w to try to calm down the people who were worried and suspicious.

Look at it now, the balance completly broken due to DLC commanders.
How Relic can still have credibility after this, i don't know. I very much regret buying CoH2, but atleast i've never bought a single DLC commander and have not touched the game in months now.

Well not a shocker, it was pretty well established that CoH2 was going to be a p2w game when it was announced that there was going to be DLC commanders.

Relic like any other company out for money will lie their teeths out to their community, They said from the start that CoH2 will not be p2w to try to calm down the people who were worried and suspicious.

Look at it now, the balance completly broken due to DLC commanders.
How Relic can still have credibility after this, i don't know. I very much regret buying CoH2, but atleast i've never bought a single DLC commander and have not touched the game in months now.

100% agreed, I uninstalled the game yesterday.
how can people still justify Relic after all this is beyond my comprehension