Changes i feel grens need

Its a 60 muni upgrade that locks out LMG42 and doesnt have 100% accuracy.

I dont see how its more problematic than existing upgraded infantry bursting down models.

I dont see how its more problematic than existing 7 model conscript squads bursting down models (7x12 = 84, 4x20=80).

I can see however how it was problematic with bolstered (One-time global upgrade) IS which could wipe out 25% of the firepower of opposing 4 model squads, and auto win engagements, whereas its far less of an issue if the targated squad is made out of 5-6-7 models. Which is basically the base design of Grens and have always been - higher durability of Allied squads compensated with higher dps of German squads.

Existing German Infantry doctrinal bolster with G43 5 member or an LMG upgrade have probably better chance to do it, since its still just 4 men kar98 squad in essence and ALL have to hit in order to succeed.

Bolster sections with 16 dmg rifles was problematic so they was nefted, 7 man con was also nefted last patch. My point is we should move away from that specific issue, rather than create more.

You can let 5th man upgrade buff the squad in other ways, such as:
- Reduce reinforce cost to 28.
- Mp 40 model and reprofile rifle with mid range focus.
- Bonus RA (if 5th model come with mp40)
- Free med kit.
Etc.

5man Grenadiers already exist doctrinally. You can't just add another 5man upgrade stock, it doesn't work design-wise and it would be very confusing.

I agree with that but don't forget the Topic's title.

The topic's title is "changes I feel grens need", not "I want Grenadiers as good as riflemen/sections".

5man Grenadiers already exist doctrinally. You can't just add another 5man upgrade stock, it doesn't work design-wise and it would be very confusing.




The topic's title is "changes I feel grens need", not "I want Grenadiers as good as riflemen/sections".

Axis OP?

Axis OP?

Axis OP

Axis OP

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In all seriousness, i doubt a reinforcement decrease to 28 would be an serious issue for improving grens(assuming they really need it, imo they are largely fine). Without requiring T4 ofcourse.

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In all seriousness, i doubt a reinforcement decrease to 28 would be an serious issue for improving grens(assuming they really need it, imo they are largely fine). Without requiring T4 ofcourse.

Ostheer is already floating Manpower in team game and you need to make real mistake on 1vs1 to get short at mp level.
It is not going to change much for Grenadiers themselves while breaking a bit more the economy balance between factions.

Faction design and reinforcement should be left intact imo reinforce their strengths don't remove their weaknesses. Counterplay must remain. We don't need more 5 man squads running around especially not on a faction designed around not having them (remeber the shit show that still persists from simply removing the weakness of the Jackson?) consider as well that ost has a number of tools to keep their units on the field. Increasing model count will compou d with that as well. You will basically have volks with better support and anyone with half a mind will know that will be game breaking. It works as a doctrinal ability because then you are trading off abilities and units. Swapping the Mg to remove the weakness of a unit won't be much of a choice at all

Having an upgrade to choose between LMG or 5th man would create the issue of limiting gren squads to 1 weapon. So you can't pick up another weapon as you can right now. If I know my stuff correctly, current the 5th man upgrade for grens and cons counts as a weapon slot.

Question is: Is it better to trade a permanent weapon squad for a 5th man upgrade.

If gren raw power is not to be buffed but their performance is, then buff skilled plays from grens, make riflenade hit faster or harder. Introduce a "hit the ground" skill like the one conscripts have, add more micro ceiling to give them an opportunity to counter play early game some, not all, situations.

I will repeat that i liked the idea of making their rifles have the same penalty as SMG against suppressed squads.

Alternative: what if you remove the capability of making bunkers from them and give them barb wire?

Alternative: what if you remove the capability of making bunkers from them and give them barb wire?

Maybe im the only one but on edge cases i issue the gren to begin building the medibunker at base, after having to retreat it.
This way the pio squad can cap or spot for the MG.

I think tis ok that gren build bunkers.

Having an upgrade to choose between LMG or 5th man would create the issue of limiting gren squads to 1 weapon. So you can't pick up another weapon as you can right now. If I know my stuff correctly, current the 5th man upgrade for grens and cons counts as a weapon slot.

Question is: Is it better to trade a permanent weapon squad for a 5th man upgrade.

You already have to choose between 5 men and lmg42 upgrade though? It just requires a doctrine

Stock 5 man grens cannot happen. I think they should maybe get an RA bonus with vet 2, so vet 3 isn't the only survivability buff they get

Could also split the damage modifier between vet 2 and 3 if adding RA is too much

You already have to choose between 5 men and lmg42 upgrade though? It just requires a doctrine

Stock 5 man grens cannot happen. I think they should maybe get an RA bonus with vet 2, so vet 3 isn't the only survivability buff they get

Could also split the damage modifier between vet 2 and 3 if adding RA is too much

I think grens are fine the way they are. They are a very cost effective DPS squad in exchange for less survivability. Adding too much RA bonus would make them even better general purpose infantry.

Take pre-nerf Fallschrimjaegers for example. They shred infantry and they had a snare to keep tanks anyway. Way too good for their cost. Grens already have a snare and putting grens above all other infantry would create the issue of how do you deal with them if they have no weakness?

Just my thoughts.

I think grens are fine the way they are. They are a very cost effective DPS squad in exchange for less survivability. Adding too much RA bonus would make them even better general purpose infantry.

Take pre-nerf Fallschrimjaegers for example. They shred infantry and they had a snare to keep tanks anyway. Way too good for their cost. Grens already have a snare and putting grens above all other infantry would create the issue of how do you deal with them if they have no weakness?

Just my thoughts.

Yeah I don't really disagree here. I don't think they are that much like falls per say but I get your point

I only say RA because they lost all of it when they got the received damage modifier at vet 3. Wasnt an awful trade, but it means grens have .91 Target size at vet 3 which is pretty high, especially for a 4 man squad. Maybe they should have a little of both instead of just damage reduction

I will repeat that i liked the idea of making their rifles have the same penalty as SMG against suppressed squads.

Alternative: what if you remove the capability of making bunkers from them and give them barb wire?

That would solve literally zero problems is the thing, they're already suppossedly fine in teamgames (though i'll defer to aera and the other 4v4 mains, as in my experience i find them underwhelming at best) and this would just buff their teamgame potenial, while the issue is in how they perform in 1v1. which is trash because they have no way to trade unless you get atleast 3-4 advantages on your opponent which is hard because you cant magic green cover out of your ass.

That would solve literally zero problems is the thing, they're already suppossedly fine in teamgames (though i'll defer to aera and the other 4v4 mains, as in my experience i find them underwhelming at best) and this would just buff their teamgame potenial, while the issue is in how they perform in 1v1. which is trash because they have no way to trade unless you get atleast 3-4 advantages on your opponent which is hard because you cant magic green cover out of your ass.

Exactly, every mainline being able to spam sandbags hurts Grenadiers.

Sandbag should cost manpower to build so anyone wanting to spam them early game at any point they're capping would had to think it twice.
Building sandbag could also disable the capping mechanism. It is true having all mainline infantry (minus Gren) able to build sandbag but only engineer or RE to counter them is a problem today.

At the moment sandbag has become a no-brainer action with hotkeys, too few downsides for it.

Sandbag should cost manpower to build so anyone wanting to spam them early game at any point they're capping would had to think it twice.
Building sandbag could also disable the capping mechanism. It is true having all mainline infantry (minus Gren) able to build sandbag but only engineer or RE to counter them is a problem today.

At the moment sandbag has become a no-brainer action with hotkeys, too few downsides for it.

idm cons and volks keeping ther sandbags since they both suck without ther upgrades, maybe after they both get ther upgrades (stg and 7th man), sandbags should be disabled from them.

IS without a doubt should have ther sand bags removed if they maintain ther performance from the patch

That would solve literally zero problems is the thing, they're already suppossedly fine in teamgames (though i'll defer to aera and the other 4v4 mains, as in my experience i find them underwhelming at best) and this would just buff their teamgame potenial, while the issue is in how they perform in 1v1. which is trash because they have no way to trade unless you get atleast 3-4 advantages on your opponent which is hard because you cant magic green cover out of your ass.

Which one, the barbwire trade or the suppression modifier? I'll say barbwire is more commonly used in 1v1 and the modifier against suppressed units is not a bonification to their accuracy. All units have penalties while firing upon suppressed and pinned units so you would just be making them fire barely like normal.

Firing upon a suppressed unit inquires a penalty of either 0.75 (for SMGs and STG) or 0.5 for the rest of the weapons. Putting it at 0.75 or 1.0 would make it a unique characteristic of grens of punishing units for staying underfire suppressed while been attacked by vanilla Kar98s (not G43 nor LMG42).

What else can you change? Munition early on goes towards medics, flamer pio or FHT. You can't make LMG42 cheaper and if you do it won't make an impact early on.

Making T1 cheaper? It's already 80mp not sure how much lower you could go. Say 20/40mp and put the rest in BP1? You might get a bit more of field presence i guess.

The thing is, there's not much room to improve or change things so you can make Grens more desirable for 1v1 for the first 5-10 mins of the game.


SU: i don't think Conscript match up is an issue for OH. It's just that it's better to go doctrinal route to make a fast T2 transition and punish and abuse with light vehicles before they are able to pump out a T70.

USF: it's doctrinal on Rifles and i don't think i see as much RET tank trap to the point of it been an issue.

UKF: IS. You could make them take longer to build a sandbag. This would mean they would give up in capping if they want to build sandbags while capping a flag.

Isn't the Wehr theory that you reinforce at the front via Halftracks and the reinforcements bunker?
that s why grens can build them i think

maybe make the reinforcement upgrade cost 20mun less?