Changes i feel grens need

As much as I disagree with Vipper on everything, I do agree that nerfing other mainlines is better than a straight up Grens DPS buff.

I think nerfing sandbag build times and taking mines and sandbags from riflemen to Rear Echelons with the field defenses ability is a good idea. Moving sandbags from tommies to Sappers would also be a good step to preventing Tommy spam. Perhaps moving both trenches and sandbags from tommies to sappers while giving tommies a weaker AT nade that doesn’t cause engine damage would be good.

Non doctrine 5 man Grenadier upgraded unlocked after teching tier 1: Ostheer can choose between LMG42 upgrade ( only 4 man ) or choose 5 man squad ( block LMG42 + G43 upgrade and only 1 weapon slot picked up? ) for each individual Grenadier squad

The cost to get 5 man would be 60 muni

Maybe throw a bonus of idk, free healing with the 5 man upgrade or faster capping speed ( Like the bonus from the Assault Grenadier? )

Let's face it why everyone prefer Assault Grenadier or ostruppen this day: They got more than 4 man at the start, losing 1 model doesn't mean losing 25% firepower at the start.

Non doctrine 5 man Grenadier upgraded unlocked after teching tier 1: Ostheer can choose between LMG42 upgrade ( only 4 man ) or choose 5 man squad ( block LMG42 + G43 upgrade and only 1 weapon slot picked up? ) for each individual Grenadier squad

The cost to get 5 man would be 60 muni

Maybe throw a bonus of idk, free healing with the 5 man upgrade or faster capping speed ( Like the bonus from the Assault Grenadier? )

Let's face it why everyone prefer Assault Grenadier or ostruppen this day: They got more than 4 man at the start, losing 1 model doesn't mean losing 25% firepower at the start.

So a superior version of the conscript 7th man upgrade but at T1 instead of T4. I'm sure that won't derail Sov vs Ost in any way.

5 man grens with no upgrade is just not worth it. They will never be as durable as cons , still have higher re inforce costs and without mg42/g43 will not be able to inflict damage. Look at what they will be fighting, allied squads that not only will be at least 5 man, but with single/dual upgrades, they still will get wrecked.

The choice is clear, either a damage increase for grens or tone down riflemen and tommies.

5 man grens with no upgrade is just not worth it. They will never be as durable as cons , still have higher re inforce costs and without mg42/g43 will not be able to inflict damage. Look at what they will be fighting, allied squads that not only will be at least 5 man, but with single/dual upgrades, they still will get wrecked.

The choice is clear, either a damage increase for grens or tone down riflemen and tommies.

Conscript vs Gren matchup is fine. Any change to gren DPS will have to be matched with a MP increase. Otherwise you can just make 4 grens and win vs Soviets.

The whole powercreep of double brens/double BARs for USF/Brits instead of accessible elite infantry has been a mistake. It would be a much better idea to make commandos and rangers stock options and making basic infantry only able to upgrade with 1 BAR or Bren.

Yeah i would also just nerf allies infanty, instead of this clown dps race where every weak infantry gets buffed each patch.

Imagine if riflemen should use cover and their t0 mortar instead of just blobbing riflemen?

Imagine if brits had to use their mg and uc, instead of blobbing infantry sections?

Conscript vs Gren matchup is fine. Any change to gren DPS will have to be matched with a MP increase. Otherwise you can just make 4 grens and win vs Soviets.

The whole powercreep of double brens/double BARs for USF/Brits instead of accessible elite infantry has been a mistake. It would be a much better idea to make commandos and rangers stock options and making basic infantry only able to upgrade with 1 BAR or Bren.

cons and grens match up was fine before cons got buffed. Agree with the 2nd paragraph.

cons and grens match up was fine before cons got buffed. Agree with the 2nd paragraph.

If by "buffed" you mean 7th man upgrade, all it did was allow cons to fight grens past first 5 minutes.
It used to be 0-5 min equal matchup 5-to the end grens roflstomping cons.

Atm its 0-5 equal matchup, 5-10 to 15 grens have large advantage, end game cons have small advantage.

cons and grens match up was fine before cons got buffed. Agree with the 2nd paragraph.

No, grens have been out-killing conscripts since release. Since the removal of random molotov crits Conscripts have suffered and were not worth it - until they finally buffed with the option for the 7th man. Grens still easily outclass Conscripts in the midgame with their much earlier LMG42 and free grenade/snare upgrades. This is also part of the reason why the T70 is so amazingly good - it has to make up for your conscripts bleeding like hell.

Infantry section have their RA changed from 0.9 to 0.85 -> LITERALLY UNKILLABLE TERMINATOR HURR DURR REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Double the Gren damage -> reasonable buff.

Wehraboos be wehrabooin, as usual.

I think the issue lays in the power difference between units rather the absolute values.
In we take into lancaster laws (both of them) and stats, small advantages can have big enough impact in the combat outcome.

Its not like a mindless rant, but maybe there is alot of it that its true. But as you said:
"Wehraboos be wehrabooin, as usual." or "You can't spell "Power Creep" without REEEEE."

Im Like literally talking to a wall here now, but i hope others understand what i mean.
Its like chaos theory, but applied to war and combat tactics.

Infantry section have their RA changed from 0.9 to 0.85 -> LITERALLY UNKILLABLE TERMINATOR HURR DURR REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Double the Gren damage -> reasonable buff.

Wehraboos be wehrabooin, as usual.

That dude didn't give the best idea, but man are you f*cking dumb.

Double means 100%. 25% damage isn't "double".

Brit infantry isn't okay. It's a fundamentally flawed design that keeps oscillating between too strong and too weak. And right now it's back on the other side of the pendulum.

Brits got a 50% increase to their defensive received accuracy bonus and a 42.8% increase in moving accuracy, while keeping the last patch's manpower cost reduction and maintaining its artificially reduced reinforcement costs and increased capping speed, and still having access to 3-4 min bolster.

I'd prefer for Grens to just get lower reinforce costs since their entities are basically just super bad tommies with worse RA and worse dps. At this point in the game we've already thrown the reinforcement formula out the window anyway. Grens costing 30mp per model is one of the chief reasons they're unusable in the early game.

Grens are certainly in an awkward place atm. Which is why most players don't build them.

Conscript vs Gren matchup is fine. Any change to gren DPS will have to be matched with a MP increase. Otherwise you can just make 4 grens and win vs Soviets.

The whole powercreep of double brens/double BARs for USF/Brits instead of accessible elite infantry has been a mistake. It would be a much better idea to make commandos and rangers stock options and making basic infantry only able to upgrade with 1 BAR or Bren.

I'd previously put forth the idea that Tommie have upgrades take a slot so double arming comes at a trade off not an inevitably and for usf have rifles 2nd slot tied behind vet 3. Officers and elite infantry are unchanged. I think that would make elite infantry more worth while and even possibly let bars and brens get buffed a smidge so they aren't just taking the enemy vet off if you only have 1

This is gonna be a big one. Plz lads no more walls of text from me.

That dude didn't give the best idea, but man are you f*cking dumb.
Double means 100%. 25% damage isn't "double".

Wanna bet?

make double lmg possible for another 60 mun after T4
or double the dmg after T4 for the LMG something like "Expert Trainig"
OR 5Man pls LMG.... bolster.

I'm referring to Princeps "suggestion", not yours, relax.

I'm rubber, you're glue.

Brits got a 50% increase to their defensive received accuracy bonus and a 42.8% increase in moving accuracy.

Oh you and your numbers, you know that twisting stats to present them in a dramatic way is overdone? I mean you COULD say that IS recieve 5% less of base weapon/squad dps but that wouldn't sound nearly as bad.
Here's a better one: "IS HAVE 166(6)% OF GRENS vet 0 RA BONUS", see? thats even more dramatic.

I'd prefer for Grens to just get lower reinforce costs since their entities are basically just super bad tommies with worse RA and worse dps. At this point in the game we've already thrown the reinforcement formula out the window anyway. Grens costing 30mp per model is one of the chief reasons they're unusable in the early game.

There are plenty of decent suggestions, I like the one with Grens getting bonus accuracy vs suppresed units the most, since its clever, unique, and fits their role (supporting MG) really well.

stuff

We are at a point in the game where we're fine-tuning units and make smallest of tweaks, Balance team does what thay can to please everyone, including salty 1v1 nerds and silent majority of 4v4 scrubs, all that between 5 factions and without making the game fall apart while they get to enjoy being told "THEY DESTROYED THE GAME" And then they get unironic suggestions to just double certain unit damage.
I'm merely pointing out how stupid these reactions are.

What I'd really love to is is a ghost-patch, whole bunch of changes announced, none go into the live game, and lets see how the forum balance section goes (probably as usual).

5 man grens with no upgrade is just not worth it. They will never be as durable as cons , still have higher re inforce costs and without mg42/g43 will not be able to inflict damage. Look at what they will be fighting, allied squads that not only will be at least 5 man, but with single/dual upgrades, they still will get wrecked.

The choice is clear, either a damage increase for grens or tone down riflemen and tommies.

Grens are not the only axis infantry you know

How do you expect Tommies or rifles to fight Pgrens or Obers if they get nerfed again?

As the tournament showed Ostheer are more than fine vs allied mainlines.

And this where you are wrong in my opinion. The patches have already changed the power level of 30 units instead of reverting the original changes to Penal and VG.

And you seem to continue changing the power level including the tommies recently.

Mainline infatry should be the core of most armies in most cases and their interaction should be fixed after all these patches. Any changes need for non stock unit should be made to doctrinal units and not stock mainline infatry.

Else you will simply continue to power creep units in endless circle.

Apply a good solution might not be easy but it much more "feasible" than applying band aid over band aid over band aid.

You keep using grens as a golden standard, they're not. You have selective memory and they were nerfed back then for good reason.

If you revert patches to decrease what you call "power creep" grens will be launching rifle nades from almost double the range they do now and carrying G43 and MG42 like they could before. Meanwhile pgrens would be overpriced and not worth building.

Hey let's remove the garand buff and give back rifles flamers and rifle smoke because in your eyes that power creep.

Infantry balance is a lot more spread out and interesting now rather than "build loads of grens and upgrade them into rambo" G43 MG combo design we had before.

So a superior version of the conscript 7th man upgrade but at T1 instead of T4. I'm sure that won't derail Sov vs Ost in any way.

Yeah but this game is not about Soviet vs Ost only right? We also have Brit and US with mainline infantry that is better compare to Grenadier atm ( or way better depend on the users )

Soviet also have elite infantry such as Penal Batalion, Guard Infantry, Shocktroops which are all expensive but good, they come out at 2CP is a bit after tier 1 teching ( And yeah, those elite infantry also come with metal doctrine such as T34/85mm, ISU, IS2 at least in 1vs1 and 2vs2 ).

Yes, at the same time Panzergrenadier will also come out and fight them I know I know, which are also 4 man squad, losing 1 model = 25% firepower and can only fight in medium / short range.

And it's not like This 5 man Grenadier ARE equip with LMG42, they are 5x vanilla kar98k, doesn't make them omg so OP, they just don't lost 25% firepower when losing 1 model, they will now lost 20% / per model only.

The purpose of this 5 man Grenadier squad are acting to draw enemy fire, recrew crew-weapon :\.

Why are people still arguing as if grens do not have access to support units until T3 and are always meant to fight alone with grenspam?

As long as you have access to most powerful HMG at T0, eatly snipier, early mortar, early forward healing/transport/reinforcement vehicle and as long as ost does not need to choose or sacrifice anything for it, grens can not and will not be stronger.

If you want to spam 1 unit in early game and have a go at opponent, play USF or OKW.

Grens are not the only axis infantry you know

How do you expect Tommies or rifles to fight Pgrens or Obers if they get nerfed again?

As the tournament showed Ostheer are more than fine vs allied mainlines.

Since they cost less and they face elite-infantry, they are not suppose to fight them, like I hope grens are not meant to face shock troops.

The tournament also showed that Ostheer rely heavily on Ostruppen doc, or Agren, or Infantry doc, but never on vanilla gren.

In 1vs1, it seems you want to avoid grens (for ostheer) and mortar (for everyone).