What is the downside to STG's on obers? They seem to shred quite well and have the benefit of revealing cloaked units from miles away which completely removes a hard counter to them with commandos.
Whats the trade off?
Obers STG
23 Apr 2020, 19:30 PM
#1
Posts: 773
23 Apr 2020, 19:41 PM
#2
Posts: 3032 | Subs: 3
the trade off is completely lackluster longrange damage
23 Apr 2020, 20:02 PM
#3
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
The hard counter to LMG obers is commandos and tanks. IRSTG obers hard counter is still tanks, just no longer commandos. The long range of the IRSTG is "ok", but it's no 2x bren section or LMG ober damage. They still do decent in cover fights though because the STGs ignore a very large portion of it and amplify neutral cover.
23 Apr 2020, 20:12 PM
#4
Posts: 773
I was going to say that in the description it mentions that they do well against infantry in cover but you just mentioned it. Any idea how this works IE green cover basically becomes yellow etc etc, or?
23 Apr 2020, 20:26 PM
#5
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I was going to say that in the description it mentions that they do well against infantry in cover but you just mentioned it. Any idea how this works IE green cover basically becomes yellow etc etc, or?
Weapon have modifier for cover, the Vamp ST44 simply have better modifiers:
ober's K98
Light cover accuracy 0.5
Light cover damage 1
Heavy cover accuracy 0.5
Heavy cover damage 0.5
Garrison accuracy 0.55
Garrison damage 0.5
Ober's ST44 infrared
Light cover accuracy 0.9
Light cover damage 1
Heavy cover accuracy 0.9
Heavy cover damage 0.5
Garrison accuracy 0.9
Garrison damage 0.5
23 Apr 2020, 21:20 PM
#6
Posts: 956
There's also a more subtle (but serious) tendency to more aggressively engage with StG Obers due to their now massive close range firepower and impossibility of losing a weapon if the squad is wiped out. Which means getting models shot up on approach. And the obvious one - you being closer to the enemy squads means that they are closer to your squad and doing much more dps to your obers on average. With the LMG34 you can laugh at them behind cover and pick off models from afar, taking minimal losses due to the LMG34 (like the 42, DP-28, Bren etc.) being better at long ranges than short.
As you can see, Long Range dps StG 44 is comparable to the LR dps Ober Kar 98 so you're not suffering too much, but it ain't no model sniper like the LMG34 is.
Still miss the days when it was 4 StGs as the upgrade and not just 2 but I think the LR dps was truly abysmal for that version back then.
As you can see, Long Range dps StG 44 is comparable to the LR dps Ober Kar 98 so you're not suffering too much, but it ain't no model sniper like the LMG34 is.
Still miss the days when it was 4 StGs as the upgrade and not just 2 but I think the LR dps was truly abysmal for that version back then.
For Italy! We have outfoxed the enemy once more!
23 Apr 2020, 22:09 PM
#7
Posts: 682
You should post a graph with STGs vs. lmg34!
/s
23 Apr 2020, 22:16 PM
#8
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
Still miss the days when it was 4 StGs as the upgrade and not just 2 but I think the LR dps was truly abysmal for that version back then.
That was never the case. They used to come with LMG34 by default and you could upgrade on top of that the IR STG.
People make the mistake in assuming that because they have STG they are forced to assault positions. Just like with PG and Falls, you are better playing them on cover and assault only when the opposing unit has low dps.
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And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
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And if it is, you only care about winning.
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23 Apr 2020, 23:08 PM
#9
Posts: 956
That was never the case. They used to come with LMG34 by default and you could upgrade on top of that the IR STG.
Yes, and then it was changed into two separate upgrade paths. LMG 34 OR the IR StG44s from a stock of Kar 98 only. The LMG was considered vastly too powerful for its apparent free upgrade and thus it was nerfed into having a muni cost.
You should post a graph with STGs vs. lmg34!
There. Looks a bit wonky and the high short-range-dps of the StG44 disguises how dangerous that LR dps is for the LMG.
For Italy! We have outfoxed the enemy once more!
23 Apr 2020, 23:41 PM
#10
Posts: 4474
You should post a graph with STGs vs. lmg34!basically ober stg deal 1/3 of the lmg obers dps long range https://coh2db.com/stats/#132
if u want a better comparison, they are sightly better than PG stgs, but u get 2 and pay munition+doc (2 pg stg will have less long range dps and 1 ir stg but better close range dps)
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
24 Apr 2020, 00:49 AM
#11
Posts: 682
Yes, and then it was changed into two separate upgrade paths. LMG 34 OR the IR StG44s from a stock of Kar 98 only. The LMG was considered vastly too powerful for its apparent free upgrade and thus it was nerfed into having a muni cost.
There. Looks a bit wonky and the high short-range-dps of the StG44 disguises how dangerous that LR dps is for the LMG.
Thank you! I just wanted to see some lines!
edit: I imagine that's for one stg entity, so double that for close-ish range.
/s
24 Apr 2020, 01:00 AM
#12
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
Yes, and then it was changed into two separate upgrade paths. LMG 34 OR the IR StG44s from a stock of Kar 98 only. The LMG was considered vastly too powerful for its apparent free upgrade and thus it was nerfed into having a muni cost.
But they never had 4 IR STG.
Obers were made to have their LMG cost muni cause the alternative was making them impossible high to buy and reinforce to justify the performance.
Comparing LMG34 vs IR STG is wonky cause it's 2 weapons vs 1 and the accuracy modifiers which comes to play mostly during mid to late game (when everything is light cover). So the better comparison would be 1 LMG34 + Ober Kar vs 2 IR STG.
With an edge on equal values towards the LMG due to focusing models down.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
24 Apr 2020, 06:16 AM
#13
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
the trade off is completely lackluster longrange damage
Not really actually, because a full IR STG 44 squad still has ~14 DPS at long range. That's not that much on its own but when there's cover involved it can actually almost match the DPS of a long range elite squad like LMG Paras due to the special cover accuracy modifiers. In light cover, LMG Paras' ~25 DPS at long range becomes ~12,5 while the IR STG 44 squad still has ~9,5. This difference becomes even smaller with veterancy (~14,3 vs ~17,1) because Obers get higher bonuses (-25% cooldown and +40% accuracy compared to Paras' -20% and +25%). Combine that with an extremely low target size (0.7 to 0.5) and they can (assuming both players use cover) still outtrade most other squads at long range, and even almost break even against elite long range squads (with vet), while also being extremely effective at close and mid range and while moving.
24 Apr 2020, 07:22 AM
#14
Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2
Sanders numbers tell most of it. The other thing is that you need to think about what the biggest threat to obers is. The answer: not other infantry squads. Obers are essentiallly an infantry counter. Ober lmg vs stg performance against other infantry squads is only partially relevant. The bigger thing is how each upgrade stacks up against HMGs and tanks, the ober counters.
HMGs will usually suppress in the first burst, so killing them as fast as possible is necessary if you want to get enough value out of your obers. The STG upgrade does that decently, but why bother with some fancy flanks if you can just send two lmg obers at the front and death loop it from max range? Even the better anti cover performance isnt as important since HMGs will usually be placed for ideal coverage, not for ideal cover.
The other interaction is more straight forward. Being able to stay as far back as possible helps a lot when there are tanks running around. At 40 manpower a model, obers get heavily punished for being too far up.
HMGs will usually suppress in the first burst, so killing them as fast as possible is necessary if you want to get enough value out of your obers. The STG upgrade does that decently, but why bother with some fancy flanks if you can just send two lmg obers at the front and death loop it from max range? Even the better anti cover performance isnt as important since HMGs will usually be placed for ideal coverage, not for ideal cover.
The other interaction is more straight forward. Being able to stay as far back as possible helps a lot when there are tanks running around. At 40 manpower a model, obers get heavily punished for being too far up.
28 Apr 2020, 16:44 PM
#15
Posts: 469
Problem with lmgs, is that everyone else is playing smgs and just runs up to a lmg squads and kills it
And btw all new commanders has smgs.
Why do you think VonIvan moans when people ask him about 4 man lmg grens?
Cause lmgs don´t work in this meta
And btw all new commanders has smgs.
Why do you think VonIvan moans when people ask him about 4 man lmg grens?
Cause lmgs don´t work in this meta
28 Apr 2020, 18:58 PM
#16
Posts: 28
Any problems with LMG Grenadiers are problems with Grenadiers, not LMGs.
Units that can get LMGs: Grenadiers, Guards, Obersoldaten, Riflemen, Paratroopers, Infantry Sections, Royal Engineers, various others.
Units that are Grenadiers: Grenadiers.
Units that can get LMGs: Grenadiers, Guards, Obersoldaten, Riflemen, Paratroopers, Infantry Sections, Royal Engineers, various others.
Units that are Grenadiers: Grenadiers.
28 Apr 2020, 19:38 PM
#17
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Problem with lmgs, is that everyone else is playing smgs and just runs up to a lmg squads and kills it
And btw all new commanders has smgs.
Why do you think VonIvan moans when people ask him about 4 man lmg grens?
Cause lmgs don´t work in this meta
Have you ever played against Guards or LMG Obers?
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
28 Apr 2020, 21:49 PM
#18
Posts: 731
For now，I think it better be call-in unit，or bundle with some ability also can work on other OKW infantry like Volks MP40 upgrade
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