Looks Like I Owe Sander An Apology

How much cheaper can you go?
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Fuel cost could go down to 50-60 and a similar reduction in performance. So that the game is not deiced weather the T-70 wrecks opponent or is lost and with it the game.

Fuel cost could go down to 50-60 and a similar reduction in performance. So that the game is not deiced weather the T-70 wrecks opponent or is lost and with it the game.

The problem is not the fuel, it's the mp you have to invest in order to get it.

The problem is not the fuel, it's the mp you have to invest in order to get it.

Imo it is the fuel. With a lower fuel price it will arrive earlier and have more time to pay off of the investment.


As for manpower cost:
260 for T-70 is lower than 265 and 270 for PzII and Stuart.

The investment to tech is progress to more things so it can not all be placed on the T-70.

Part of the problem is progressively more powerful unit have become available earlier and that has made unit with limited window of opportunity to be OP to be worth the investment.

Timing seems of units and its impact seem to be underestimated characteristic of units.

Imo things thing need to be slow downed.

Imo it is the fuel. With a lower fuel price it will arrive earlier and have more time to pay off of the investment.


As for manpower cost:
260 for T-70 is lower than 265 and 270 for PzII and Stuart.

The investment to tech is progress to more things so it can not all be placed on the T-70.

Part of the problem is progressively more powerful unit have become available earlier and that has made unit with limited window of opportunity to be OP to be worth the investment.

Timing seems of units and its impact seem to be underestimated characteristic of units.

Imo things thing need to be slow downed.

It's the manpower more than the fuel thats the main bottle neck for the T70. It's why the AA halftrack isn't very popular despite having a much lower fuel cost; by the time you have T3 you have enough fuel for the T70.

command P4 still has no prioritize vehicles only??? can someone explain why

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Then we will have to agree to disagree.

"The investment to tech is progress to more things so it can not all be placed on the T-70."

While that's is true, it's irrelevant during the early and midgame for high lvl 1v1

Mortar, maxim are not seen till late into the game. Zis gun is relevant in order to stall til the T70 against FHT or P2. M5 sees no use as a rush unit but late game to counter skillplanes. Su76 once u are so far behind that you will lose if you get your Zis circled around.

Unless you plan to skip T3, while using doctrinal units like Guards or Shocks, T2 see little play early on to make use of that tech investment because then your T3 units are gonna be arriving too late (this doesn't mean that some games doesn't revolve around light vehicles far into like 20 mins in).


Your plan is not to just touch the T70 cost down. For that to work you also have said that all 5 factions should had their light cars and tanks timing and performance touched as well as by your standard are too strong atm as well. IMO that's too naive to suggest thinking it can be implemented at all.

It's the manpower more than the fuel thats the main bottle neck for the T70. It's why the AA halftrack isn't very popular despite having a much lower fuel cost; by the time you have T3 you have enough fuel for the T70.

Again what I have said one should stop making progressively more powerful unit earlier. It does not matter if it manpower or fuel that make the T-70 arrive at its current time.

The unit should be cost according to its performance and increase the window of opportunity for units make units easier to pay for their cost.

The reason the AA HT is not popular has to do with fact that it does have the squad wipe potential of the T-70.

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Your plan is not to just touch the T70 cost down. For that to work you also have said that all 5 factions should had their light cars and tanks timing and performance touched as well as by your standard are too strong atm as well. IMO that's too naive to suggest thinking it can be implemented at all.

What I am suggesting is the trend to make more and more powerful unit available earlier should stop and hopefully reverted.

Actually I am surprised that some people do not fully appreciate the effect that changes in timing have with Super heavies being one of the latest examples.

What I am suggesting is the trend to make more and more powerful unit available earlier should stop and hopefully reverted.

Actually I am surprised that some people do not fully appreciate the effect that changes in timing have with Super heavies being one of the latest examples.

Good luck changing the timings of 222, FHT, P2, Puma, Flak HT, M20, Stuart, AA HT, AEC, M5, T70 and so on to accommodate to whatever you think it's better timing wise.

More so if you plan to make all factions pay similar teching cost at equal timings.

Again what I have said one should stop making progressively more powerful unit earlier.

Then I suppose its good that T-70 haven't received a singular buff in years?
Inb4 you try the 400 health thing, let me remind you that self repair, still allowing it to not die in 2 shots and canceling faust was removed from it in return.

It does not matter if it manpower or fuel that make the T-70 arrive at its current time.

It does matter.
It very much does matter.
Literally all units are balanced around their cost and timing.
How can you even attempt to deny that? Its unquestionable fact around which the whole balance of the game lies, not an opinion.

The unit should be cost according to its performance and increase the window of opportunity for units make units easier to pay for their cost.

So, what is wrong with most expensive stock light arriving the latest of them all performing better then cheaper and earlier equivalents?
Why aren't you complaining about OKW P4 roflstomping all other stock medium tanks?
The exact same principle applies in that case.

The reason the AA HT is not popular has to do with fact that it does have the squad wipe potential of the T-70.

Its not popular, because it doesn't have firepower at all, its suppression platform primarily, damage one secondarily when upgraded and when unupgraded its regular reinforcement vehicle.
Its not popular, because at the stage of the game when soviets get T3, other factions have their elites and stock infantry decked out in weapon upgrade as well as their own lights that are on field for at least 2 minutes already, inflicting more bleed then soviets can inflict themselves.

Good luck changing the timings of 222, FHT, P2, Puma, Flak HT, M20, Stuart, AA HT, AEC, M5, T70 and so on to accommodate to whatever you think it's better timing wise.

More so if you plan to make all factions pay similar teching cost at equal timings.

Yet the timing of units have been changed patch after patch.

Then I suppose its good that T-70 haven't received a singular buff in years?
Inb4 you try the 400 health thing, let me remind you that self repair, still allowing it to not die in 2 shots and canceling faust was removed from it in return.


It does matter.
It very much does matter.
Literally all units are balanced around their cost and timing.
How can you even attempt to deny that? Its unquestionable fact around which the whole balance of the game lies, not an opinion.

Your response demonstrates that you have not understand what has been said so far and just jumped in simply to disagree.

So, what is wrong with most expensive stock light arriving the latest of them all performing better then cheaper and earlier equivalents?
Why aren't you complaining about OKW P4 roflstomping all other stock medium tanks?
The exact same principle applies in that case.

Check price of vehicles the T-70 is not the most expensive stock "light"
You also have missed the problem that has to do with T-70 being OP according to many people.

Its not popular, because it doesn't have firepower at all, its suppression platform primarily, damage one secondarily when upgraded and when unupgraded its regular reinforcement vehicle.
Its not popular, because at the stage of the game when soviets get T3, other factions have their elites and stock infantry decked out in weapon upgrade as well as their own lights that are on field for at least 2 minutes already, inflicting more bleed then soviets can inflict themselves.

If you think the Qaud does not have firepower you are simply mistaken.

I agree the manpower is more of an issue than the fuel on the T70. Soviet are not getting any "freebies" like okw or usf are getting their light tanks (still will need mp for snares and molitovs and medics on top of the teching and on top of the unit) and don't get a free squad to help offset that. If the T70 is going to get a power reduction I'd sooner see a bit of mp shaved than some fuel frankly. T34s are cheap enough that knocking of 10 fuel won't have as dramatic an impact as some manpower might.
The AI reduction coupled with keeping the fuel higher might help make the T70 less of a no brainer and more of a focused choice. Less of an all round good investment more of a countering 222s and luchs. Possibly even skipped if those units don't hit the field in favor of say the quad.
A light touch would be needed but that's my input on the matter.

And by doing so, you need to bring the whole T3 to arrive sooner. The performance atm is tied to how late it arrives compared to all other lights.

Or what you could do is make the Puma a 5 cp call-in again but limit it to 1 so its essentially the same as the Valentine tank.

Its not popular, because it doesn't have firepower at all, its suppression platform primarily, damage one secondarily when upgraded and when unupgraded its regular reinforcement vehicle.
Its not popular, because at the stage of the game when soviets get T3, other factions have their elites and stock infantry decked out in weapon upgrade as well as their own lights that are on field for at least 2 minutes already, inflicting more bleed then soviets can inflict themselves.

It's not popular in what? I see it all the time in team games and I build it a lot myself. Its a great suppression platform and its probably the best AA unit in the game

You don't buy it for killing power, you get it for suppression and AA. AA is progressively more valuable the more players you add since there's more shit flying around

Maybe it doesn't appear in tourneys, but neither do a lot of things that are still popular in team games

The m5 just arrives to late to have a big enough impact imo. It arrives when proper at is already fielded. This has a lot to do with the timing and power of the t70 in the same tier.

It gets wrecked really easely when it hits the field. This imo forces it in a defensive role.

I still think the m5 should have gotten the healing instead of the 251. Axis already have plenty stock healing options. Soviets have one stock and its base locked.
The 251 is cheaper, arrives earlier has more use and power throughout the game and thus build a lot more.

Then I suppose its good that T-70 haven't received a singular buff in years?
Inb4 you try the 400 health thing, let me remind you that self repair, still allowing it to not die in 2 shots and canceling faust was removed from it in return.


It does matter.
It very much does matter.
Literally all units are balanced around their cost and timing.
How can you even attempt to deny that? Its unquestionable fact around which the whole balance of the game lies, not an opinion.

You are completely right dude. There are so many things not related to timing and fuel costs that do matter. That is exactly why the Heavy Tank meta from the previous patch had so much impact, because these things that you cite matter loads to the game. It is saddening to read that so many people just turn the game into a bland excel sheet without actually knowing how to play the game.

Again what I have said one should stop making progressively more powerful unit earlier. It does not matter if it manpower or fuel that make the T-70 arrive at its current time.

The unit should be cost according to its performance and increase the window of opportunity for units make units easier to pay for their cost.

The reason the AA HT is not popular has to do with fact that it does have the squad wipe potential of the T-70.

You have been a big proponent of reducing the powerlevel and cost of the T70. This simply doesn't work. It won't make the unit arrive earlier, it will just bring out a weaker T70 at roughly the same time. Seriously weakening the oppertunity for Soviets to come back from getting hammered by P2+Stg volks or Ost Flamehalfracks. The reason for this is the bottleneck in Soviet Tech cost. The only way a reduced cost T70 will work is when you make T3 not require T1 or T2 OKW style, or making upgrades like medics/AT nades free unlocks with tech. I don't like either idea.

You have been a big proponent of reducing the powerlevel and cost of the T70. This simply doesn't work. It won't make the unit arrive earlier, it will just bring out a weaker T70 at roughly the same time. Seriously weakening the oppertunity for Soviets to come back from getting hammered by P2+Stg volks or Ost Flamehalfracks. The reason for this is the bottleneck in Soviet Tech cost. The only way a reduced cost T70 will work is when you make T3 not require T1 or T2 OKW style, or making upgrades like medics/AT nades free unlocks with tech. I don't like either idea.

The thing is that most tech are messed up and it is not simply a T-70 issue and I simply do not accept the argument that T-70 has to be "OP", it does not.

There are number of fixes for this:
One can delay 222/FHT by reintroducing 221
One lower the price of OKW T2 to be the same as T1 and move the extra cost to engineer and make a prerequest for T2

And I am not sure why in your opinion the T-70 should be a counter to PzII or FHT, Soviet have zis and where given PTRS to deal with these threats, if these option do not work there is something wrong in that design.

Your solution of making T3 come with a previous building simply makes thing worse as even more powerful unit become available earlier. This is direction that should simply be stopped. When something does not work one should consider reverting back instead of continuing down the same path.

The thing is that most tech are messed up and it is not simply a T-70 issue and I simply do not accept the argument that T-70 has to be "OP", it does not.

Have you considered the possibility that in context of other factions units compared to what opposition it faces, it is not op? If it was, it would receive rework akin to that of Stuart or 222.

One can delay 222/FHT by reintroducing 221

How reintroduction of weak unit will make people not go for strong one?

And I am not sure why in your opinion the T-70 should be a counter to PzII or FHT, Soviet have zis and where given PTRS to deal with these threats, if these option do not work there is something wrong in that design.

Do you know what FHT does to ptrs penals or you just drive straight into satchel range? Only AT rifle unit in game that can counter it are guards and only thanks to button, not PTRS.

Your solution of making T3 come with a previous building simply makes thing worse as even more powerful unit become available earlier. This is direction that should simply be stopped. When something does not work one should consider reverting back instead of continuing down the same path.

If you want to make a unit significantly weaker then it is currently, you need to allow it significantly faster and vice versa - that's the reason 222 does not cost 15 fuel anymore.

Also, what you want to revert about T-70?
It received only nerfs for couple of years straight, in fact it never received a singular lone buff, any buff it received always came with multiple nerfs, making overall performance lower then before the change.