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Tiger nerf

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27 Jul 2020, 18:33 PM
#221
avatar of Kronosaur0s

Posts: 1701

Vaccum Tiger shooting freely against 3 squads (1 clumd up in the side of the tiger, and 2 in no cover), medium range with no threats to it from TDs.. what are you trying to prove man. Of course those 3 squads are gonna be taken down lol
27 Jul 2020, 19:13 PM
#222
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Exactly, which is why it’s pointless to go Tiger. The meta has thus shifted to 5man Grens in 1v1/2v2 to bolster the infantry war by quite a margin, while Panzer IVs and the buffed Brummbar can bear the brunt of fighting infantry and Panthers are there for fighting heavies, as well as the Elephant alternative pick to 5man Grens as an ISU152 counter. It’s not worth picking a Tiger doctrine just to pay double the P4 price for a P4’s anti infantry and to make do with LMG Grenadiers.


OK but how does its AT performance stack up against the p4? How effectively can it fight enemy medium tanks? How many shots can it take? How many shots can it bounce?

I'm kinda new here but I think there's more to the picture of a unit than just its AI power however any time the elefant isu gets brought up many people seem to think otherwise....
27 Jul 2020, 19:17 PM
#223
avatar of Pervitin Addict

Posts: 51



Noobs and trolls aside, the general consensus is that the Tiger in its current state is not worth investing in. I don't see anything wrong with that consensus nor do I think some huge buff is needed. I think a slight buff in performance or a shift to a command tank role for both Ost and OKW variants would turn it into a viable choice in the meta.


I like the notion of shifting the standard OST Tiger variants to have some form of the OKW command tiger buff
27 Jul 2020, 20:04 PM
#224
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

This test would make so much more sense if the same test was conducted for IS2, Pershing, HE sherman, etc. and repeated a few times. This way it seems more of an rng luck and rather misinformative.
MMX
28 Jul 2020, 04:49 AM
#225
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

This test would make so much more sense if the same test was conducted for IS2, Pershing, HE sherman, etc. and repeated a few times. This way it seems more of an rng luck and rather misinformative.


it's all been done before by several people (most famously by tightrope), but if you really want to exclude rng to the point that these tests become somewhat reliable you'd have to up the number of repetitions from 'a few' times to 'a couple hundred times' at least. that's not gonna happen, unless someone has the time and energy to spend literal days on collecting this kind of data in-game.
imho, theoretical calculations, as done for example by Hannibal or myself, can fill this gap nicely, but that doesn't mean videos like the one posted by aerafield have no value - especially if they are used to reinforce an argument.
28 Jul 2020, 06:18 AM
#226
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jul 2020, 04:49 AMMMX


it's all been done before by several people (most famously by tightrope), but if you really want to exclude rng to the point that these tests become somewhat reliable you'd have to up the number of repetitions from 'a few' times to 'a couple hundred times' at least. that's not gonna happen, unless someone has the time and energy to spend literal days on collecting this kind of data in-game.
imho, theoretical calculations, as done for example by Hannibal or myself, can fill this gap nicely, but that doesn't mean videos like the one posted by aerafield have no value - especially if they are used to reinforce an argument.

Well, Tightrope's vids are the best imo. Much better than this one. They, from what I remember, seem to suggest otherwise to the vid from here. He just uses more tanks simultaneously shooting at targets. This vid is an rng show. I'm not commenting on the state of a tiger though, haven't used it much after the last patch.
MMX
28 Jul 2020, 06:32 AM
#227
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1



Repeat the test with a Panzer IV.




I'm sure their AI level is the same.


if we're talking about the main gun ai only, i'd expect the tiger to beat any p4 (especially the ost version) by a huge margin, even more so at long range. would love to see a direct head-to-head comparison though.
28 Jul 2020, 06:49 AM
#228
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

I wish SB compared it to an HE Sherman, could be interesting.
28 Jul 2020, 07:46 AM
#229
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

I wish SB compared it to an HE Sherman, could be interesting.


I dont think you can compare the 2. The tiger is more durable does not need to swith rounds to excell in either ai or at and has less utility.

Imo the tiger still is a safe bet over a p4 or panther. Just not as safe anymore. It still has about panther level at on its main gun next to p4 reload time and good ai as well. Add its durability on top of that.
28 Jul 2020, 08:13 AM
#230
avatar of Darkpiatre

Posts: 282

I wish SB compared it to an HE Sherman, could be interesting.


If I remember someone compare pershing and HE sherman, and another compare Pershing and Tiger, you can join it easy but I don't know where it was post.
28 Jul 2020, 08:22 AM
#231
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351



I dont think you can compare the 2. The tiger is more durable does not need to swith rounds to excell in either ai or at and has less utility.

Imo the tiger still is a safe bet over a p4 or panther. Just not as safe anymore. It still has about panther level at on its main gun next to p4 reload time and good ai as well. Add its durability on top of that.

Of course I'm aware of the differences. Yet I feel such comparisons would be so cool. Then you would probably have to compare against different infantry squads and cover. IMO impossible to actually do because of how time consuming and painstaking it would be. I feel tightrope is the only one to actually try that. Still probably not enough data. I guess at least a dozen of people should do that testing different settings (range, cover, attack ground shots, different infantry squads, and many more variables - pintle, no pintle to name just a few).
28 Jul 2020, 08:30 AM
#232
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351



If I remember someone compare pershing and HE sherman, and another compare Pershing and Tiger, you can join it easy but I don't know where it was post.

Tightrope tested all heavies against infantry squads after the patch (vs cons and volks) I think.
MMX
28 Jul 2020, 09:05 AM
#233
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1


Of course I'm aware of the differences. Yet I feel such comparisons would be so cool. Then you would probably have to compare against different infantry squads and cover. IMO impossible to actually do because of how time consuming and painstaking it would be. I feel tightrope is the only one to actually try that. Still probably not enough data. I guess at least a dozen of people should do that testing different settings (range, cover, attack ground shots, different infantry squads, and many more variables - pintle, no pintle to name just a few).


you mean sth like this?
28 Jul 2020, 11:16 AM
#234
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8


Tightrope tested all heavies against infantry squads after the patch (vs cons and volks) I think.


How many times he repeated it?
2?
3?

His results aren't what I'd call reliable if all of the testing is what is on his movies, because his number of repeats is not even enough for error margin alone, much less a reliable source of data.
28 Jul 2020, 11:59 AM
#235
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 3041 | Subs: 3

Vaccum Tiger shooting freely against 3 squads (1 clumd up in the side of the tiger, and 2 in no cover), medium range with no threats to it from TDs.. what are you trying to prove man. Of course those 3 squads are gonna be taken down lol


there has been people who claimed their Tiger was shooting a lot of shots against inf (blobs) yet the Tiger got 0 or 1 kills. These and other people basically claimed the Tiger has no anti inf anymore, which obviously isnt the case. So either these people are exaggerating af or they constantly picked engagements like "longrange Tiger vs inf behind a map-trench cover or behind elevation" where it would be ridiculous to expect model drops.


And what on earth would the addition of TDs showcase here? Of course you have to back out if multiple Jacksons are shooting at you but whats the point? An ISU-152 is also useless against inf when 3 panthers charge towards it... except that the ISU-152 isn't useless against inf.
28 Jul 2020, 12:22 PM
#236
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1



there has been people who claimed their Tiger was shooting a lot of shots against inf (blobs) yet the Tiger got 0 or 1 kills. These and other people basically claimed the Tiger has no anti inf anymore, which obviously isnt the case.


From what I get using it and your video in this thread backing it up a bit. Main tiger AI damage comes from MG and AOE.

It cant kill inf strate of the bat if its a full HP squad, if its a not a direct hit, but it can harrass it damage and eventually kill it. When squad is damaged, tiger provide reliable AI.

Its a honestly good design in general. Thing is compare to Pesrhing\IS-2\ISU\KV-2\HE Sherman\KT which are just strate off wiping and killing models, Tiger might feel kinda meh.

Thats why tiger AI looks poor.
28 Jul 2020, 13:09 PM
#237
avatar of Kronosaur0s

Posts: 1701



there has been people who claimed their Tiger was shooting a lot of shots against inf (blobs) yet the Tiger got 0 or 1 kills. These and other people basically claimed the Tiger has no anti inf anymore, which obviously isnt the case. So either these people are exaggerating af or they constantly picked engagements like "longrange Tiger vs inf behind a map-trench cover or behind elevation" where it would be ridiculous to expect model drops.


And what on earth would the addition of TDs showcase here? Of course you have to back out if multiple Jacksons are shooting at you but whats the point? An ISU-152 is also useless against inf when 3 panthers charge towards it... except that the ISU-152 isn't useless against inf.



What im saying is the TTK (timetokill) and is not very good, that tiger took a lot of time to kill one of those squads out of cover. You appear with the tiger, you take 2 shoots max before backing out because enemy TDs are almost there and voilá, 2-3models killed, not very good.

ISU does not have that problem IMO..so no reason to get ISU in this argument.
28 Jul 2020, 13:20 PM
#238
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



From what I get using it and your video in this thread backing it up a bit. Main tiger AI damage comes from MG and AOE.

It cant kill inf strate of the bat if its a full HP squad, if its a not a direct hit, but it can harrass it damage and eventually kill it. When squad is damaged, tiger provide reliable AI.

Its a honestly good design in general. Thing is compare to Pesrhing\IS-2\ISU\KV-2\HE Sherman\KT which are just strate off wiping and killing models, Tiger might feel kinda meh.

Thats why tiger AI looks poor.


IMO most tank AI should come from the mgs, not the cannons as it's more reliable for both parties. Exceptions of course being units with large caliber weapons like the ones you listed. This would help them stand out without being broken (granted since basic tanks have had aoe reduced and big boomers in turn they are no longer completely obnoxious)
28 Jul 2020, 14:03 PM
#239
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jul 2020, 11:16 AMKatitof


How many times he repeated it?
2?
3?

His results aren't what I'd call reliable if all of the testing is what is on his movies, because his number of repeats is not even enough for error margin alone, much less a reliable source of data.


Please don't take stuff out of context. You are basically omitting a very important part of my comment on his tests and suggest what I actually wrote. Why are U doing it?
28 Jul 2020, 16:35 PM
#240
avatar of Kieselberg

Posts: 269


there has been people who claimed their Tiger was shooting a lot of shots against inf (blobs) yet the Tiger got 0 or 1 kills.


there has been people who claimed their Tiger was shooting a lot of shots against inf (blobs) yet the Tiger got 0 or 1 kills.

It is not a claim. It is a fact; even though i made the mistake and didnt save the replay. Call it RNG, call it bad luck. But it is sth. that will occur more often, since it might deal damage to the squad, but isnt capable to finish the job in a shorter time period.

Id take the comet anytime instead of the tiger. MOre agile and higher AI output traded for slight worse AT and durability.

Lastly, i am aware that neither my missing replay nor your one are able to draw a clean picture, since they are a way too small sample size.

It makes me wonder, wether the cp nerf for heavys were too hard with the other nerfs. 10 cp might have been a better option.
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