Tiger nerf

The Meta in 4vs4/3vs3 do not use Tiger either, you'll always prefer 2 stug for AT or Brum/Ostwind for AI. The vet 2 scatter nerf wasn't compensate with turret speed for the Ace version since it often use Spearhead tactics which lock the turret anyway.

Waiting for it just open a wide window where you are vulnerable and you'll always prefer cheaper tank, less vulnerable to Off-map combo and easier to manoeuver.

Which is never the case. Cause mostly no one has the time or will to run a test 30/50 times.

People makes bias selection on the type of information that fits their narrative. For me i put the same weight in the information provided by MMX as what Tightrope has provided and then considered which one has a higher probability to show what is true based on sample size.


It's simple human psychology. We weight negative outcomes doubly than positive ones.
Ask someone to bet money and only when they can win double of what they can lose they start to be comfortable in their decision (coin toss, bet $10 to win $30 total not $20).

Same in games with buffs and nerfs. It's also interesting seeing the effects of placebo nerfs as well. There's been cases in MOBAS when they announced nerfs on a changelog but never implemented them and still a character would drop in win%.

The changes that the balance team did were so small that you'd have to run some of these tests a lot more than 50 times to see if it made much of a difference. Having used all of the heavies except the TA since the patch, they all seem a little underwhelming for AI at vet0, but start to get good at vet 1 and are really good at vet 3. Also, the Brumbar comes a lot quicker and doesn't have to vet up before being good. The little bit of armor added feels like it made it much more durable so many players are getting it instead of waiting for a Tiger.

The changes that the balance team did were so small that you'd have to run some of these tests a lot more than 50 times to see if it made much of a difference. Having used all of the heavies except the TA since the patch, they all seem a little underwhelming for AI at vet0, but start to get good at vet 1 and are really good at vet 3. Also, the Brumbar comes a lot quicker and doesn't have to vet up before being good. The little bit of armor added feels like it made it much more durable so many players are getting it instead of waiting for a Tiger.

How can there be a difference at vet 1 since the vet 1 does nothing?

How can there be a difference at vet 1 since the vet 1 does nothing?

not in all cases:

IS-2 Heavy Tank
Unlocks the "OF-471 Fragmentation Shell" ability.

not in all cases:

IS-2 Heavy Tank
Unlocks the "OF-471 Fragmentation Shell" ability.

I was talking about the tiger specificaly

I was talking about the tiger specificaly

I wasn't talking about the Tiger specifically. It gets a lot better at Vet 2, but so do most other heavies. If you think the Tiger was the only heavy that got nerfed hard, you probably haven't used any other heavy.

I wasn't talking about the Tiger specifically. It gets a lot better at Vet 2, but so do most other heavies. If you think the Tiger was the only heavy that got nerfed hard, you probably haven't used any other heavy.

Nope, only AVRE/croc aside from tiger+variant. Heavies weren't relevant in teamgames anyway before the nerf, but since the Tiger and the ISU-152 are present in most of the best doctrine (if you want assault gren/HF mortar or IL-2 bombing strike for instance) I used it before the nerf, and after... the Tiger is... meh.

the vet 2 scatter nerf was a bit over the top IMO, that scatter buff was there for a long time, then the tiger get's busted aoe and peaple start nerfing it's veterancy. I dont quite understand that.

EDIT: The new HE shell of the IS2 is actually a pretty good ability, good aoe not so big insta kill on full hp sqads and 0 scatter. This really falls in practical when killing support weapons that were wounded by a previous first shot

considering how long it takes until the tiger arrives now and how long it takes to actually vet him up, he is just overnerfed by any means

not to mention you pretty much need an JT or ele to counter an ISU, yet the ISU is still superior because it causes constant bleed, wipes and vets up really fast

Since the OP got revived recently and the original assessment I posted here was based on a slightly erroneous calculation (somehow back then I missed the AoE near range reduction from 1.5 to 1 m), I'll just copy-paste an updated view on the Tiger AoE changes taken from the OP of the Scatter This! thread I made a while ago.

Show Spoiler

TL;DR

While the AI of the Tiger still remains far better than that of any medium or premium med in the game (yes, even the HE-Sherman), it did receive a slightly greater nerf to its Vet0 performance than other heavies in the latest patch.
Comparing the Vet2 preWBP and live Tiger, the AI performance in the tests I've run dropped by 15 to almost 40% depending on formation spacing as a result of the scatter bonus removal. I personally don't think the new bonus to turret rotation can fully make up for this, but it could be argued that the Tiger didn't need such a dramatic Vet2 boost in the first place.

In any case, the bottom line is that the Tiger is still very well worth its price performance-wise, especially since its AT capability remains virtually unchanged (and in fact even received a small buff due to the Vet2 turret rotation buff). The fact it has fallen out of the current meta probably has more to do with its delayed arrival / respawn timer and, in case of OKW's GO version, the removal of the tank commander upgrade.

Pre nerf I could bring Tigers to about 90 kills in a long match (those that last about an hour).

Had some games that lastet an hour with the new patch where I fielded a Tiger. The Tigers had about half the kill count. Pretty juch sums up where the Tiger is now.

You are better off with a Brummbär + Pak these days.

Pre nerf I could bring Tigers to about 90 kills in a long match (those that last about an hour).

Had some games that lastet an hour with the new patch where I fielded a Tiger. The Tigers had about half the kill count. Pretty juch sums up where the Tiger is now.

You are better off with a Brummbär + Pak these days.

If anything, sums up how broken tiger was, given how long it takes for brummbar to get that kind of score.
IS-2 was never capable of these kill counts, because of comparatively high scatter.

You people have to deal with this, not one half decent soviet player complained about IS-2 armor nerf, time to stop being drama queen about Tiger AI firepower not being over the level of specialist AI vehicle anymore.

If anything, sums up how broken tiger was, given how long it takes for brummbar to get that kind of score.
IS-2 was never capable of these kill counts, because of comparatively high scatter.

You people have to deal with this, not one half decent soviet player complained about IS-2 armor nerf, time to stop being drama queen about Tiger AI firepower not being over the level of specialist AI vehicle anymore.

Point is that the Tiger currently does not perform for its cost.

Any Panzer IV can rack up the kills just as well. From my experience the OKW P4 with the vet bonuses racks the infantry kills up even faster that the Tiger.

Your whataboutisms about the IS-2 do not make this problem any more insignificant. Soviets just switched to KV versions. Ostheer lost it's only heavy tank.

Point is that the Tiger currently does not perform for its cost.

Any Panzer IV can rack up the kills just as well. From my experience the OKW P4 with the vet bonuses racks the infantry kills up even faster that the Tiger.

You can make the same argument for T34 and IS-2.
In fact, T34 got much better AI then IS-2.

Your whataboutisms about the IS-2 do not make this problem any more insignificant. Soviets just switched to KV versions. Ostheer lost it's only heavy tank.

Yeah, KV-1 as seen on the tournament.
I also do like KV-2, but if you go KV-2, well, it can but its not exactly good at fighting anything with armor higher then ostwind.

If you want strong AI, you do NOT go for generalist tank.
And just because heavies are not armies on their own does not mean they are weak or bad.
In fact, they NEVER should be one unit armies they were, especially tiger was guilty of it, having greater range, penetration, rate of fire and lowest scatter.

I really see why you people think tiger is bad after it was overperforming crutch for so long, I really do, but again, if you want potent AI vehicle, pick a dedicated vehicle.

Sorry, we did not had YEARS of EVERYONE top and bottom tier ranting about heavy tanks being too overrepresented in all game modes just to cry to bring them back once they finally got into a balance state.

1 heavy should NEVER outperform 2 mediums and Tiger effortlessly did.

Point is that the Tiger currently does not perform for its cost.

That's my opinion, and it is even more obvious with the Ace Version: cost of a Tiger 2 which perform like a Tiger.

[...]
Any Panzer IV can rack up the kills just as well. From my experience the OKW P4 with the vet bonuses racks the infantry kills up even faster that the Tiger.
[...]

Obviously things look a bit different when you throw Vet into the mix. Especially for the OKW Panzer IV, which is a true AI powerhouse once vetted up since it not only gets the usual reload buff but also has 30% less scatter at Vet4. At this point it is even better than a Vet3 HE-Sherman and roughly on par with the Vet0 Tiger in terms of AI performance.

Tiger is trash why would anybody play it when there are units which can be stacked for similar cost and perform better in unison and spreading the potential loss of value.

Pre nerf I could bring Tigers to about 90 kills in a long match (those that last about an hour).

Do you want it to be able to do this again? And why?

Heavy meta was awful for the game