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Tiger nerf

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Sander93
11 Jun 2020, 21:08 PM
#121
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jun 2020, 20:35 PMDarkpiatre
Seems both Tiger and ISU have 200 pen far.


The Tiger has 25% more DPM. TTK against a medium tank is roughly 50% longer for the ISU. The Tiger has much higher effective accuracy. The ISU can not chase effectively, needs to be stationary to fire and is a casemate with only -15/15 max traverse and very slow gun traverse (12 d/s). It's also very slow and needs to manually switch shells. The only thing it has going for it is range and having Mark Vehicle in the same commander which can in some cases decrease its TTK.

So yes, even though the ISU is decent at fighting tanks (although 200 pen is barely enough to reliably penetrate a Panther), it is not even close in terms of AT performance to the Tiger.
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Darkpiatre
11 Jun 2020, 21:09 PM
#122
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jun 2020, 21:04 PMKatitof

But in the time ISU will take one shot that will likely miss, Tiger will do 3.

You are better off with desperate SU-76 then ISU if you need actual AT.


One has 70 range and the other 45.
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Katitof
11 Jun 2020, 21:12 PM
#123
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jun 2020, 21:09 PMDarkpiatre


One has 70 range and the other 45.

Yes, as balance indicates, safer option is incomparably less efficient at AT job, unless we talk ele or JT, then its superior again.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Jiav
11 Jun 2020, 21:17 PM
#124
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jun 2020, 21:04 PMKatitof

But in the time ISU will take one shot that will likely miss, Tiger will do 3.

You are better off with desperate SU-76 then ISU if you need actual AT.


its not about a direct engagement, its about harassment. A tiger can easily be scared off late game by a couple of ATGS, not to mention an isu.

An ISU can basically just sit on a decent spot and 24/7 shoot at everything axis has to offer, unless they either decide to a) dive it or b) get an elefant or JT. It causes constant bleed or a need for repair.

Diving it is obviously extremly risky and most likely always will result in a win or lose for either side or you have to get an JT or ele to scare it away. Otherwise it will slowy bleed Axis dry.

Sadly Axis have no "cheap" option to ram and off map it, so going in for a kill is almost always an "all in".
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Darkpiatre
11 Jun 2020, 21:18 PM
#125
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jun 2020, 21:12 PMKatitof

Yes, as balance indicates, safer option is incomparably less efficient at AT job, unless we talk ele or JT, then its superior again.


Then saying that "it is not an AT option" is false, since it has 70 range, 240 dmg/shot, same pen as Tiger far,same ready to aim time, ISU even has slightly better accuracy.

Tiger DPM: 1920
ISU AP DPM: 1440

The ISU is 25% less effective than the Tiger, I find it quite fair considering its range, so "incomparably" is quite false too.
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Katitof
11 Jun 2020, 21:25 PM
#126
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jun 2020, 21:18 PMDarkpiatre


Then saying that "it is not an AT option" is false, since it has 70 range, 240 dmg/shot, same pen as Tiger far,same ready to aim time, ISU even has slightly better accuracy.

Tiger DPM: 1920
ISU AP DPM: 1440

The ISU is 25% less effective than the Tiger, I find it quite fair considering its range, so "incomparably" is quite false too.

I didn't said its not an AT option, I said its inferior option.
It will do the job, but its not good at it compared to anything else, other 70 range units included.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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BlueKnight
11 Jun 2020, 21:34 PM
#127
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Guys, sadly your effort in this topic is wasted. All that was to be said was said already, all facts were stated. It's time to close this topic. Heavy tanks are in a good state in which they are expensive, but still better than the stock tools, yet now they are not 1-unit army anymore as they were before. They are the most balanced they have ever been, timing, acquisition via tech + CP, cost and performance, all of these are just right.
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Katitof
11 Jun 2020, 21:54 PM
#128
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jun 2020, 21:34 PMBlueKnight
yet now they are not 1-unit army anymore as they were before

You see, this is why this thread exist, for some reason if Tiger performs worse AI then Brummbar, its suddenly bad and extinct. It doesn't matter its THE BEST generalist tank in AT department, if it doesn't one shot whole squads, its just a bad unit.

You know, like command panther was a bad unit for no reason until HH played it in the tournament and it magically became a good one with no changes.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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DerKuhlmann
11 Jun 2020, 22:31 PM
#129
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In a book titled T-34 in Action there is a quote by a Red Army tanker describing the firepower advantage German Tiger tank had on the battlefields of the Eastern Front when in open country.

"Just try to approach them, theýd burn you tank from 1.200 to 1.500 metres! They were cocky! In essence, until we got our 85mm guns we had to run from Tiger like rabbits and look for an opportunity to turn back and get at their flanks. It was difficult. If you saw a Tiger at 800 to 1000 metres crossing you while it moved its gun horizontally you could stay in your tank. But once it started moving vertically, you´d better jump out or you´d get burned. It never happened to me, but other guys bailed their tank.
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thedarkarmadillo
11 Jun 2020, 23:54 PM
#130
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I'd support a bump in damage to 200 damage to set the tiger apart as a better AT unit readjust AOE profile as needed but it would help make the tiger a better choice against elite enemy armour.
#stalinwept
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Darkpiatre
12 Jun 2020, 08:07 AM
#131
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What is the point of having a UNIQUE heavy tank which cannot be the pinacle of your composition? There is already a lot of drawback having so many ressources concentrate in 1 unit. Building 1 is already a challenge considering that sparing those ressources means that no other tank hit the battlefield during this time. And the tank isn't good enough to repel rushing section and has even worse AT capabilities than the Panther.
Having all those ressources concentrate in the same unit also mean that you're more vulnerable to Combo (Ram+IL2, Guard immobilisation, marked vehicule, tulipe ect...), which adds up with your slower mobility.

I though the patch was ok, but now I realize that the Tiger isn't use anymore. And that's even worse for the Ace Version and the Pershing.
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Sander93
12 Jun 2020, 08:30 AM
#132
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2020, 08:07 AMDarkpiatre
[Tiger] has even worse AT capabilities than the Panther.


This is just false. The Tiger has a (much) better TTK against all vehicles. A vet 3 Tiger is significantly better than a vet 3 Panther at killing tanks.

Counting from the first shot, at mid range,
A Panther has a TTK of 19,95-26,6s against a medium tank, as it's likely to miss one shot due to average accuracy and poor scatter.
A Tiger has a TTK of 15,75s against a medium tank, with a small chance of 21s because it has high accuracy due to very tight scatter.

Against an IS-2 at far range, the Panther has a TTK of around 59,85s (disregarding accuracy this time) while the Tiger has 47,25s. The difference will probably be bigger because the Panther is more likely to miss shots.

The Tiger loses the range disadvantage at vet 2, is usually able to vet up faster because it can also easily deal damage to infantry, has higher accuracy, significantly higher DPM, has more staying power, while the mobility disadvantage is not that big. In summary, it does not have worse AT capabilities than the Panther. It's not even close.
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Darkpiatre
12 Jun 2020, 08:52 AM
#133
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2020, 08:30 AMSander93


This is just false. The Tiger has a (much) better TTK against all vehicles. A vet 3 Tiger is significantly better than a vet 3 Panther at killing tanks.

Counting from the first shot, at mid range,
A Panther has a TTK of 19,95-26,6s against a medium tank, as it's likely to miss one shot due to average accuracy and poor scatter.
A Tiger has a TTK of 15,75s against a medium tank, with a small chance of 21s because it has high accuracy due to very tight scatter.

Against an IS-2 at far range, the Panther has a TTK of around 59,85s (disregarding accuracy this time) while the Tiger has 47,25s. The difference will probably be bigger because the Panther is more likely to miss shots.

The Tiger loses the range disadvantage at vet 2, is usually able to vet up faster because it can also easily deal damage to infantry, has higher accuracy, significantly higher DPM, has more staying power, while the mobility disadvantage is not that big. In summary, it does not have worse AT capabilities than the Panther. It's not even close.


Panther has better pen(220 for 200 far), better accuracy far (0.035 for 0.025) and the 0.3 sec more reload time ( 5.6 for 5.3 far). Again if i'm facing medium, I will always prefer Stug 3 for accesibility and price. And if i'm facing Heavier tank, I will go for Panther or rely on Pak, since both have higher pen and more range from the get go.

Having a Tiger require logistic with enough Pios to heal it fast enough to keep it in the fight, plus at his timing you will likely face 60 range TD, probably vet-ed. If you must wait vet 3 to have a worthy tank, maybe it would be too late in most game mode, that's why nobody use it anymore. Vet should reward micro, not be the standard of a good vehicule.
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Sander93
12 Jun 2020, 09:15 AM
#134
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2020, 08:52 AMDarkpiatre
Panther has better pen(220 for 200 far)

The negligible difference in penetration is easily outshadowed by the Tiger's superior DPM. As demonstrated by the significantly faster TTK against a heavily armored vehicle like the IS-2 that I showed before, which is based on the IS-2s effective health (taking penetration vs armor into account).


jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2020, 08:52 AMDarkpiatre
better accuracy far (0.035 for 0.025)

Base accuracy is only half of effective accuracy. Scatter is the other half. The Panther has bad scatter (7.5 scatter angle and 8 distance max) which means it will likely miss most shots it misses, while the Tiger with superior scatter (4.75 scatter angle and 4.3 distance max) will still scatter-hit most misses.


jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2020, 08:52 AMDarkpiatre
and the 0.3 sec more reload time ( 5.6 for 5.3 far).

No, reload duration is only one part of the total reload time. The Panther has a 6.65s base reload while the Tiger has 5.25s.
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Darkpiatre
12 Jun 2020, 09:27 AM
#135
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2020, 09:15 AMSander93

The negligible difference in penetration is easily outshadowed by the Tiger's superior DPM. As demonstrated by the significantly faster TTK against a heavily armored vehicle like the IS-2 that I showed before, which is based on the IS-2s effective health (taking penetration vs armor into account).


You can have the Highest DPM of the world, if it doesn't pierce through the result is the same. And if 20 pen is negligible, since the Stug 3 has 170 pen it is still a better choice over the Tiger for every Medium target.
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Widerstreit
12 Jun 2020, 10:04 AM
#136
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Little Off-topic:

I am still for making hull-down an normal Ostheer feature for vehicles (not doc-ability), it is a more or less unused ability to improve units while give some handy-caps. An option to move Tiger, StuG etc. in a more balanced way in larger multiplayer (spam bias), but in 1vs1 stays very decent.

Edit:

If hull-down would get normal, I would remove it for Tiger-Ace and Elefant. Making the effects for all vehicles more special.
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A table
12 Jun 2020, 10:11 AM
#137
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jun 2020, 20:35 PMDarkpiatre


Seems both Tiger and ISU have 200 pen far.


As others have said, pen and damage mean less in the picture of the ISU152 if you count in reload time. It takes twice as long, possibly thrice as long, for the ISU to reload in comparison to the Tiger 1. An SU85 is a much better AT option in both regarding overall performance and its pricetag.

Hence, it is a less potent AT vehicle than the tiger. I'm really just repeating what others have said here, so i'll just leave it at that.
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Darkpiatre
12 Jun 2020, 10:41 AM
#138
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2020, 10:11 AMA table


As others have said, pen and damage mean less in the picture of the ISU152 if you count in reload time. It takes twice as long, possibly thrice as long, for the ISU to reload in comparison to the Tiger 1. An SU85 is a much better AT option in both regarding overall performance and its pricetag.

Hence, it is a less potent AT vehicle than the tiger. I'm really just repeating what others have said here, so i'll just leave it at that.


And you can prove easily that the DPM of the ISU-152 isn't that bad considering it's range, and the reload time match it's higher damages, so stating that it is not an AT option is simply wrong.
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A table
12 Jun 2020, 10:51 AM
#139
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2020, 10:41 AMDarkpiatre
stating that it is not an AT option is simply wrong.


Good thing i didn't say that then. It is a worse option, not an non- existant one.

Katitof pretty much summed it up for me:
jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jun 2020, 21:25 PMKatitof

I didn't said its not an AT option, I said its inferior option.
It will do the job, but its not good at it compared to anything else, other 70 range units included.


Let's keep focusing on the tiger's supposed lacking performance instead of comparing assault guns to heavy tanks.
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Darkpiatre
12 Jun 2020, 11:45 AM
#140
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jun 2020, 20:31 PMA table

should really only be used for AI.


Here is what exaclty was false.
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