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COH2.ORG » Forums » Parlor Room » COH2 Central » COH2 Balance » What if we made the Flame Hetzer a useful unit?

What if we made the Flame Hetzer a useful unit?

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aerafield
3 Apr 2020, 13:26 PM
#21
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jump backJump back to quoted post3 Apr 2020, 13:16 PMSander93


Big surprise but there are other modes as well. Which also happen to be more popular. Essen Steelworks, Ettelbruck Station, La Gleize, Angermunde, Lorch Assault, Lienne Forrest are all (semi)urban maps on which Feuersturm shines. Not every doctrine or unit needs to be (or can be) viable across all modes and that's fine.


I mainly play the bigger teamgame modes and Hetzer rush can definitely be a very strong strat at higher levels, but only if you are far ahead in the fuel department compared to your enemy. Otherwise it's just not worth the risk compared to waiting for a P4. Getting caught off-guard with hetzer by a medium allies tank or getting your raketen(s) wiped by a lucky mortar/nade/tank shot etc is a very big risk and puts you so far behind if it happens and you got no P4
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blvckdream
3 Apr 2020, 13:28 PM
#22
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jump backJump back to quoted post3 Apr 2020, 13:24 PMSander93


Regardless of your opinion, Essen Steelworks, Ettelbruck Station, Angermunde and Lienne Forrest are all popular 3v3 and 4v4 maps. There's plenty of opportunity for Feuersturm to dominate and making it stronger for 1v1/2v2 would break it in 3v3/4v4.


Is there anyone else who thinks Flame Hetzer is borderline OP in 3v3 and 4v4? Because I really struggle to imagine a scenario where a Flame Hetzer would be OP. I play 3v3 and 4v4 every once and then and I can't even remember having seen a single Flame Hetzer in all of these games.

Again Cromwell comes at 230 fuel.

Current Hetzer comes at 270 fuel (including healing). This is ridiculous.

How is this even a problem?? If we removed Panzer authorisation the Hetzer would come at 210 fuel. Just 20 fuel cheaper than Cromwell or 10 fuel cheaper than Centaur.


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Katitof
3 Apr 2020, 13:28 PM
#23
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jump backJump back to quoted post3 Apr 2020, 13:18 PMblvckdream


Almost all of these maps are so bad they should just be deleted from the game. So you are telling me we cant make the Flame Hetzer useful because of fucking Ettebruck and Lorch Assault? Wow.

And we can't make it stronger, because you have put all the maps its excelling at on veto.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Vipper
3 Apr 2020, 13:32 PM
#24
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jump backJump back to quoted post3 Apr 2020, 13:28 PMblvckdream


Is there anyone else who thinks Flame Hetzer is borderline OP in 3v3 and 4v4? Because I really struggle to imagine a scenario where a Flame Hetzer would be OP. I play 3v3 and 4v4 every once and then and I can't even remember having seen a single Flame Hetzer in all of these games.

Again Cromwell comes at 230 fuel.

Current Hetzer comes at 270 fuel (including healing). This is ridiculous.

How is this even a problem?? If we removed Panzer authorisation the Hetzer would come at 210 fuel. Just 20 fuel cheaper than Cromwell or 10 fuel cheaper than Centaur.

The commander is not bad large mods (4vs4) and I used it allot against UKF that build emplacement (and the commander is going to be nerfed even for that).

Hetzer is not that good. I did manage to get 1 at vet 5 once but it is very situational.
:)
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OrangePest
3 Apr 2020, 13:35 PM
#25
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Its a very thin balance, its good in 1v1s but lacks a bit of power because of okw teching being trash, but if okw tech beomces good hetzer would be broken i think. Since even double ATG will struggle against a good player imo.
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T.R. Stormjäger
3 Apr 2020, 13:36 PM
#26
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jump backJump back to quoted post3 Apr 2020, 13:35 PMOrangePest
Its a very thin balance, its good in 1v1s but lacks a bit of power because of okw teching being trash, but if okw tech beomces good hetzer would be broken i think. Since even double ATG will struggle against a good player imo.


This, exactly this.
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1v1: Pstreak: - 1
1v1: 12streak: + 1
1v1: 15streak: - 2
1v1: Pstreak: - 7


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blvckdream
3 Apr 2020, 13:38 PM
#27
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jump backJump back to quoted post3 Apr 2020, 13:35 PMOrangePest
Its a very thin balance, its good in 1v1s but lacks a bit of power because of okw teching being trash, but if okw tech beomces good hetzer would be broken i think. Since even double ATG will struggle against a good player imo.


Double AT tears through a Hetzer with ease. It has 180 armour 640 HP. It's got the survivability of a medium tank but no turret so it will never be able to flank any at-gun. No medium tank can stay in front of two AT-guns so why would a Hetzer be able to do so?
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OrangePest
3 Apr 2020, 13:41 PM
#28
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jump backJump back to quoted post3 Apr 2020, 13:38 PMblvckdream


Double AT tears through a Hetzer with ease. It has 180 armour 640 HP. It's got the survivability of a medium tank but no turret so it will never be able to flank any at-gun. No medium tank can stay in front of two AT-guns so why would a Hetzer be able to do so?


It can do it, because its going to be backed by a luchs and puma, easy peasy, for example
>Hetzer rush in
>Puma aimed shot
>One at gun disabled
>Hetzer kills one

Or
>Hetzer rushes in and one atg has low hp
>Crits and it dies quickly
>Takes the other one down
>Whatever LVH on the field can't stop it.

Or if it just catches an ATG moving at all its probaly a writeoff.

It's extremely good, just it not being tiger and okw tech that hampers it.
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JibberJabberJobber
3 Apr 2020, 13:44 PM
#29
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jump backJump back to quoted post3 Apr 2020, 13:38 PMblvckdream


Double AT tears through a Hetzer with ease. It has 180 armour 640 HP. It's got the survivability of a medium tank but no turret so it will never be able to flank any at-gun. No medium tank can stay in front of two AT-guns so why would a Hetzer be able to do so?


And 15 target size..

Yes, a flame Hetzer can rush 2 unsupported AT guns head-on and likely wipe them frontally with 1/4th HP left. No good player would do that, but it shows its potential.
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aerafield
3 Apr 2020, 13:46 PM
#30
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With the current OKW t4 price, Ostwind and Hetzer would be super OP if they didnt require panzer authorization. But it would be good if the T4 costs 80 or 90 fuel and authorization 40 or 30 fuel
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Vipper
3 Apr 2020, 13:54 PM
#31
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This part of the reason why I have suggested that flame vehicles should get dot as an ability and not in auto-fire. It will help allot in balancing them.
:)
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blvckdream
3 Apr 2020, 13:55 PM
#32
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jump backJump back to quoted post3 Apr 2020, 13:44 PMJibberJabberJobber


And 15 target size..

Yes, a flame Hetzer can rush 2 unsupported AT guns head-on and likely wipe them frontally with 1/4th HP left. No good player would do that, but it shows its potential.


I just tested this in cheat mod and it literally never wipes two AT-guns frontally. The only way this could happen is if both AT-guns are super close to each other. But why would you place two at-guns on top of each other against a flame tank?

It takes two at-guns ONE reload to delete the Hetzer.

BTW: The Flame Hetzer dies before even getting in range of the flame thrower if the AT-guns have something to spot for them and can start firing away at 60 range.

So yeah Flame Hetzer does not frontally wipe two at-guns.

But it's ok let's just keep it useless and dead because that is much better than making it useful.
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Grim
3 Apr 2020, 14:13 PM
#33
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Happy to give the hetzer a buff if it leads people away from using Grand Offensive and fortifications 24/7.....shit's getting old.

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WAAAGH2000
3 Apr 2020, 14:13 PM
#34
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I though just change tech request to T4 without upgrade,or reduce build cost
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Sander93
3 Apr 2020, 14:13 PM
#35
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jump backJump back to quoted post3 Apr 2020, 13:55 PMblvckdream
But it's ok let's just keep it useless and dead because that is much better than making it useful.


You keep repeating this and yet you've never really offered anything resembling a concrete proposal on how to actually "make it useful", while considering its performance across multiple game modes, outside of "just put it into some meh commanders", again without any details on which ones and what it should replace then (and removing Panzer Authorization but that was specifically decided against already). Problem-centric attitude gets us nowhere. Come up with proper solutions instead.


Also in regards to the Hetzer frontally wiping an ATG; the trick is to attack ground the gun for 1-2 flame bursts and then back up and let the high DOT damage kill the crew or at least force it to retreat on low health, which is easy to achieve when the Hetzer is supported by some infantry. And hope that its 15 target size allows it to dodge a shell or two. I doubt it can reliably take on double ATGs though, but I wouldn't expect a 90 fuel vehicle to do so anyway.
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Farlion
3 Apr 2020, 14:17 PM
#36
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Here we go again. We can't have nice things because of 3v3 and 4v4.
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Widerstreit
3 Apr 2020, 14:25 PM
#37
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jump backJump back to quoted post3 Apr 2020, 14:13 PMWAAAGH2000
I though just change tech request to T4 without upgrade,or reduce build cost


That is good.
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KoRneY
3 Apr 2020, 16:35 PM
#38
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Hetzer can fire through all sorts of shit with attack ground. Things that would normally block almost any other shot
/s
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blvckdream
3 Apr 2020, 16:40 PM
#39
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jump backJump back to quoted post3 Apr 2020, 14:13 PMSander93


You keep repeating this and yet you've never really offered anything resembling a concrete proposal on how to actually "make it useful"


-> Remove Panzer Authorisation requirement but make build time 30seconds longer and increase price to 100 fuel

-> Give it to OKW Luftwaffe and Fortification Doctrine and merge that mini flak emplacement with another unit or just remove it altogether. It's thematically wrong but would make the doctrines more interesting and fun to use.

-> Buff the stats a little but keep Panzer Authorisation requirement, like for example shorter build time and/or +80 HP at vet 2


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Tobis
3 Apr 2020, 16:48 PM
#40
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The hetzer is actually really really good, but it's stuck in a lame doctrine.
If you rush it against usf it's pretty cool. It can 1v1 AT guns so unless they have a tank it's gg.
Tobis "Complete Throw"

Someone asked what my avatar was from... I really don't know.

Defeated Paula and knocked him out of 2v2 Anniversary Cup :snfBarton:
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