Tiger main gun nerf too much? (Winter patch)

@Katitof:
Dude, can you please answer me one question:
Please stop to lay me things in the mouth I never said:
I never said the Tiger should stomp Allied heavies. All I want is a Tiger who is worth the money.
Looking at the video the TIger is NOT worth is money.
And if you say "The T-70 is better than the 222 because it costs 70 fuel".. well thats a good argument. More expensive units should be better than cheaper units and im all for it.
Sadly your logic dont work on the KT who is a lot more expensive than the IS2 but not nearly as good.Heck, the KT is also not nearly as good as the regular Tiger.

Is Tiger exclusively AI vehicle?

Also, when was last time you've used KT?
Because I can tell it wasn't since it got buffed recently.

While I applaud Tightrope for taking the time to demonstrate the Patch I would hesitate before placing too much stock into what it means. Keep in mind that these aren't same conditions you use the Tiger in game (he didn't upgrade the Pintle in the video) when you have that extra pintle damage alone then models drop off more quickly. Plus you have to take into account actual game conditions (unit synergies etc.) A lot more goes into whether the Tiger is useful than just the # of shots on average it takes to kill a squad.

Is Tiger exclusively AI vehicle?

Also, when was last time you've used KT?
Because I can tell it wasn't since it got buffed recently.

Another example of your bad discussion culture:
Of course I used it and the unit is a lot better than before. But if the KT is better than the TigerI why are all OKW players use the later one?

But you dont need to answer if you want to "discuss" the way you did.
I respect your sharp tongue and I can even enjoy having hot balancing discussion with your but if you constantly come up with insinuations I will not continue this.

Another example of your bad discussion culture:
Of course I used it and the unit is a lot better than before. But if the KT is better than the TigerI why are all OKW players use the later one?

Have you missed the whole period since OKW got tiger 1 and now?
Because its AI was broken OP, partly thanks to a bug.
That's why the nerfs are coming now.

OP units, by nature, always overshadow balanced ones until they themselves are balanced.

I though is fine,now heavy tank is too great……but I though now maybe should increase heavy tanks main gun damage make them more dangerous for medium and light,then balance AOE make them not too dangerous for infantry

Welcome to Coh2 where we nerf German stuff that packs a punch while ignoring issues with the Allies alltogether. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You won't be able to fire back as Germans but hey, you can cap a bit faster.

Welcome to Coh2 where we nerf German stuff that packs a punch while ignoring issues with the Allies alltogether. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You won't be able to fire back as Germans but hey, you can cap a bit faster.

Welcome to CoH2 forums, where certain players focus exclusively on 1 side nerfs, while completely ignoring and disregarding the fact that opposing side gets the exact same nerfs, because "devs always favor red units and hate blue units".

I want its ai to be nerfed but not as weak as trying to survive few of zooks.

some important points raised in this topic but the usual suspect katitof is desperately trying to derail the thread once again

9 shots from the tiger to kill a clumped squad ? that's ridiculous. Are the tigers main gun stats now worse than before they tried to buff heavy tanks ?

9 shots from the tiger to kill a clumped squad ? that's ridiculous. Are the tigers main gun stats now worse than before they tried to buff heavy tanks ?

At no point in time on the first vid there was any kind of clumped squad anywhere.
That's because squads with presence of no cover do not clump up, just so you know.

EDIT: Screwed up the initial calculation of the "circle AoE". It is now fixed.

Got my calculation bat to feed some data into this discussion:

This is (if my calc is correct) how the approximate damage AoE curves look like:



"Functional area" is the area with 80 HP as a cap, since more than that are not useful and would scew the data.

I've done some more calc for better AoE estimation not only in the plot area, but the circle estimation.

This gives the following values (in damage*square meter):

Tiger pre 1157
Tiger post 973
IS2 pre 1338
IS2 post 1191

Regarding AoE only (RoF is neglected, if someone has the exact values at hand please forward them to me), this means that post-patch the Tiger is 84% as good as the pre-patch while 'new' IS2 is 89% as good. The Pre-patch IS2 was 15% better than the Tiger, while this value goes to 22% post-patch.

Overall nerfs don't seem super drastic, but of course can be fine tuned. In the video it look like the Tiger is a bit weak, but it's hard to tell from shooting at two squads. Also it will likely look different in a real battle were models are already damaged by small arms.

Fastest in class is Pershing
Range is the same as Persing at vet 0 and same as IS-2 once vetted.

That leave only ROF

I never said SPEED just rof.
Did they buff the range of the Pershing and I missed it? And vet is a discussion of its own imo.

I never said SPEED just rof.
Did they buff the range of the Pershing and I missed it? And vet is a discussion of its own imo.

Can you change it to "fastest rate of fire in its class?"

Tiger ROF
5.25
vet 3 3.75

Is-2 RoF
6.65
4.73

Pershing
6.75
4 (not sure if is up to date)

One point worth mentioning:

One has to keep in mind that different sizes of squad also since is smaller squads the probability of all entities taking damage would be higher.

vet 0 performance against inf is maybe a tiny tiny bit too weak now. But the current onehit killradius and vet 2 scatter bonus are broken af

Well, i´m all in for heavys not being the solution to everything.
Ofc squads in a normal match might have gotten some damage before.
Yes, secondary guns are missing in the video.

But these are unvetted squads. Not moving, not fighting back. Imagine the tiger moving back because you don´t want it to get hit by AT stuff.

Wasnt there something like 50%acc on the move? The way back to its base must be filled with anti infantry or it surely won´t make it back home.


just my opinion. still a noob. Pls don´t insult me. pls don´t kill me.

9 shots from the tiger to kill a clumped squad ? that's ridiculous. Are the tigers main gun stats now worse than before they tried to buff heavy tanks ?

I'm a bit scared it may be now worse than he Sherman

I'm a fan of the balance team, though, and trust they really want to polish the game. My humble suggestion would be to change one stat at a time. It seems a bit too much now but will see.

Well, i´m all in for heavys not being the solution to everything.
Ofc squads in a normal match might have gotten some damage before.
Yes, secondary guns are missing in the video.

But these are unvetted squads. Not moving, not fighting back. Imagine the tiger moving back because you don´t want it to get hit by AT stuff.

Wasnt there something like 50%acc on the move? The way back to its base must be filled with anti infantry or it surely won´t make it back home.


just my opinion. still a noob. Pls don´t insult me. pls don´t kill me.

Tanks don't hit infantry with the accuracy stat anyways. But scatter is also modified, I'm not 100% sure how scatter is exactly affected though (it could be that not every point in the allowed scatter area might be hit with the same probability).

Can you change it to "fastest rate of fire in its class?"

Tiger ROF
5.25
vet 3 3.75

Is-2 RoF
6.65
4.73

Pershing
6.75
4 (not sure if is up to date)

One point worth mentioning:

One has to keep in mind that different sizes of squad also since is smaller squads the probability of all entities taking damage would be higher.

Thanks!
Yes, the AoE is only part of the equation. Model count of the targeted squad, ROF and scatter are also very important.

Will post the ROF normalization later