Fallshrims got completely neutered over the years

While they used to be fine, they were rebalanced to be batshit op. Keep in mind the stock okw has effective no weakness mainline AND core elite long range elite infantry so a unit that has infiltration built into its cost can't compete. It's similar to the problem with elite infantry in the usf. It's difficult to make a doctrinal unit that is technically not needed be attractive.

So a balanced infiltration unit will seem worthless (as both jli and falls seemed to the powers that that be)

It is all about making a unit bring something different to the table.

JLI could easily remain an infiltration unit if they pop, CP and power level was reduced. They would still be useful as scouts.

Fallj could easily remain an infiltration unit if their design to be closer to commandos probably cheaper with lower power level. They have little reason to be an airdropped unit and the problem with over lap remain there regardless of method of entering the field (airdropped or infiltration). Actually they could do both in their old implementation.

There is no reason for OKW to have both of their infiltration units removed.

Don't you think if it was that simple and obvious, it would be... you know... done?

That is quite irrelevant to the argument, both falls and JLI used to be infiltration units and caused no balance issues.

The choice between "OKW infiltration units or balance in game" is simply fictional.

Except for the whole "pop out of garrison and insta nuke support weapons" or "pop out on retreat path and get guaranteed wipe because they arrive with 4X FGs" otherwise yes. Infiltration units are essentially removed from the game - Partysans aren't used much at all even after being redone and any time I see Infiltration Commandos used it's usually being called into base for reinforcement first thing. Also I personally see a distinction between Obers and Falls where Falls are more of glass cannon that arrive sooner whereas Obers have a higher scaling ceiling (IMO). I mean I guess we can give them an optional upgrade for Stormtrooper MPs with Tactical assault like other factions paratroopers *shrug*

That is quite irrelevant to the argument, both falls and JLI used to be infiltration units and caused no balance issues.

The choice between "OKW infiltration units or balance in game" is simply fictional.

They did cause balance issues.

IIRC first version where cheap 4 man G43 squads. Then it was changed to crit sniper model and it didn't saw use as much till Ostwind Scavenge Meta or outside a certain top player (VindiX? can't remember exactly who spammed them)

OG Falls as an infiltration unit was badly designed/balanced. If you just build them up, they were overpriced, but if you use it to wipe instantly a sniper, artillery or support weapon it pay for itself and then you later had an Ober squad which you didn't need to spend muni to upgrade.

They did cause balance issues.

IIRC first version where cheap 4 man G43 squads. Then it was changed to crit sniper model and it didn't saw use as much till Ostwind Scavenge Meta or outside a certain top player (VindiX? can't remember exactly who spammed them)

OG Falls as an infiltration unit was badly designed/balanced. If you just build them up, they were overpriced, but if you use it to wipe instantly a sniper, artillery or support weapon it pay for itself and then you later had an Ober squad which you didn't need to spend muni to upgrade.

None of that are affect the balance of factions.

Again the claim that their choice to be made between "OKW infiltration units or balance in game" is simply fictional.

Both FallJ and JLI could remain infiltration units and could be balanced.

It's almost like the balance team wants the game to be skill based instead of having a bunch of uncounterable no-brain cheese abilities that win games.

lol good joke. Looking back to riflemen-buff. xDD

None of that are affect the balance of factions.

Again the claim that their choice to be made between "OKW infiltration units or balance in game" is simply fictional.

Both FallJ and JLI could remain infiltration units and could be balanced.

The claim they didn't cause balance issues is false as well.

Both units could remain been infiltration units, but instead they would lose whatever they make them unique as well.

The claim they didn't cause balance issues is false as well.

I am not sure what we are arguing now. In JLI and Fall where OP/UP before their changes because they where infiltration units or because they where badly implemented/designed?

Both units could remain been infiltration units, but instead they would lose whatever they make them unique as well.

So you agree with me that claim is false. Thank you.

In you opinion if JLI remained an infiltration unit but where moved back to CP 2 they would become OP?

In your opinion if Fallj remained an infiltration unit instead of airdropped unit and spawned with 4 rifles they would become op?

I am not sure what we are arguing now. In JLI and Fall where OP/UP before their changes because they where infiltration units or because they where badly implemented/designed?


So you agree with me that claim is false. Thank you.

In you opinion if JLI remained an infiltration unit but where moved back to CP 2 they would become OP?

In your opinion if Fallj remained an infiltration unit instead of airdropped unit and spawned with 4 rifles they would become op?

1- Both. OP on their infiltration, UP on their commander. AI performance changing depending on patches. Badly design and implemented.

2- Depends on the power level of the infiltration. Infiltration as a concept and implementation is just cheesy. Just take a look at the only real infiltration unit which remains, the Partisans.

3- If they spawned with rifles, with grenades on cd, no. But at that point what accomplish infiltration? Gaining a garrison? What's the cost, more coding and complicating things by giving them 2 upgrades, one to buy freely 2 STG and a 2nd one after tech for another 2.

1- Both. OP on their infiltration, UP on their commander. AI performance changing depending on patches. Badly design and implemented.

So their where not actually causing faction balance issues only diversity with in the faction issues.

Did they need a changes? yes.
Did both units need to lose infiltration? no.

Can their current implementation be improved? Yes if patches stop focusing on fire power and start focusing on utility.

2- Depends on the power level of the infiltration. Infiltration as a concept and implementation is just cheesy. Just take a look at the only real infiltration unit which remains, the Partisans.

Storm trooper, airborne guard and Inf. commandos are also infiltration unit.

I would argue the partisan are semi decent and the commander is problem. As for AT partisan they are problematic but for other reasons.

3- If they spawned with rifles, with grenades on cd, no. But at that point what accomplish infiltration? Gaining a garrison? What's the cost, more coding and complicating things by giving them 2 upgrades, one to buy freely 2 STG and a 2nd one after tech for another 2.

That is the point of airdropping them? So that they can die by crushing to world objects because there are no beacons? So that they can be annihilated during the drop?

If USF paras are designed correctly as and airdropped units Fallj should follow that desing and get more entities.

If ST are correctly designed then fallJ should follow the same example and and be an infiltration unit.

Now the take the worse of two worlds and OKW are left with no infiltration unit.

That is the point of airdropping them? So that they can die by crushing to world objects because there are no beacons? So that they can be annihilated during the drop?

Falls have much less scatter on paradropping; you're far less likely to have any die on the drop. This is so much as to say that they don't need a beacon.

If USF paras are designed correctly as and airdropped units Fallj should follow that desing and get more entities.

Absolutely. They should be a 5-man 0.83ish RA camo squad with kar98s, upgrade into assgren MP-40s or dual FG-42s. Even keep the faust. They can't be this bullshit 4x unicorn gun monstrosity in any case, though.

OFF TOPIC: Paras themselves probably could use a looking at with much that unit depends on extremely powerful mandatory upgrades; reworked Falls could be a good way to show how important utility can be instead.

If ST are correctly designed then fallJ should follow the same example and and be an infiltration unit.

Would only work if they get MP-40s like ST do rather than FG-42. Otherwise you have the issue you have now. It's worth noting falls drop and camo pretty fast; the only thing that makes them not a 'proper' infiltration unit at the moment is the plane flying over and the fact they can't magic spawn out of a building behind some poor dude's team weapons.

Now the take the worse of two worlds and OKW are left with no infiltration unit.

Why does OKW need one? USF doesn't have one either, and they're all pretty gamey to begin with. Soviet Guards Airborne by all rights SHOULD have been airdropped too, but relic shot that down.

Falls have much less scatter on paradropping; you're far less likely to have any die on the drop.

Not really.

Their scatter depend on if you have vision on the LZ or not so it depends.

Why does OKW need one?
USF doesn't have one either, and they're all pretty gamey to begin with.

Ask Relic that inimitably design them

Soviet Guards Airborne by all rights SHOULD have been airdropped too, but relic shot that down.

That was an animation issue not a decision of Relic. And they could simply be a call in squad.

bullshit 4x unicorn gun monstrosity

Now now, the FG-42 is a brilliant piece of engineering. It's one of the most iconic German weapons. When you hear that rattle sound, you know it's Falls after you.

They only start with 2 and require Panzer Authorization before the other two can be gotten for a significant muni price.

I really don't feel like they overlap with obers. Camo that gives a first strike bonus is solid and Obers do not have that. You also can't airdrop obers on the field

Not really.

Their scatter depend on if you have vision on the LZ or not so it depends.

They have half the spawn_time_scatter of USF paras and half the drop time in their paradrop ebps. Both abilities have the same LZ scatter values. In any case I find Paras die a lot more often than Falls, though I think that's OK, since Paras should be depending on Pathfinders and their beacons. I don't think not having Beacons has significantly hurt Falls as a unit.

That was an animation issue not a decision of Relic. And they could simply be a call in squad.

IIRC modders had created an impromptu 'animation' for them but relic rejected it, and nobody working there is going to bother to rig proper para animations for them, sadly. As a call-in I think they'd be more pointless than they are now.

Now now, the FG-42 is a brilliant piece of engineering. It's one of the most iconic German weapons. When you hear that rattle sound, you know it's Falls after you.

They only start with 2 and require Panzer Authorization before the other two can be gotten for a significant muni price.

Lol.

They used to spawn with all 4 though. I don't really think they should start with any, and just upgrade into two. That hinges on them becoming a 5-man squad like I've proposed before though.

Overlap? Since when did obers have camo and ambush bonus?

They took away Faust but made the unit field earlier, so you could argue they diversified it more. Obers don't come that early so you can fit a couple of squads in your build quite easily.

Also AT capability just doesn't fit the role of falls, they were notorious historically for being caught unprepared when something as simple as a Bren carrier turned up in Crete for example. Suffering heavy losses.

Actually I would like to use this post to bring attention to the battle of Crete, which was a batshit crazy operation that succeeded against all odds.


When the paratroopers landed on Crete, they were hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned. The reinforcements got cut off or shot down, and most of them were unarmed, due to the guns being lost(which of course didn't stop the Australians and British from shooting them, warcrime alert). The German style of leadership,with everyone of every rank involved on the frontline fighting, quickly incurred some heavy losses on the German division command. Additionally, the British knew about the operation beforehand due to intelligence, and have been practicing fighting against airborne assaults for months, shifting quite a big number of troops to Crete and fortifying, entrenching and preparing the island for months beforehand.



So what happened when that unarmed and outnumbered Fallschirm division landed in the midst of a hugely superior enemy force, locked in with them on an island?

They ripped the defenses apart. They didn't even have any anti-tank weaponry, and still destroyed all British tanks, including the Matilda tanks.

Endresult: 23000 allied losses, recoverable or unrecoverable, to 5000 axis ones.


Crete was an absolute unicorn and hollywood movie of a military operation. It's the real life equivalent of Connor McGregor beating prime Mike Tyson. And they then did it AGAIN in 1944.



Oh and I'd like to add that the standard K98 SmKh round penetrated 18mm RHA and was fully capable of penetrating a Bren carrier from the front.

Actually I would like to use this post to bring attention to the battle of Crete, which was a batshit crazy operation that succeeded against all odds.


When the paratroopers landed on Crete, they were hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned. The reinforcements got cut off or shot down, and most of them were unarmed, due to the guns being lost(which of course didn't stop the Australians and British from shooting them, warcrime alert). The German style of leadership,with everyone of every rank involved on the frontline fighting, quickly incurred some heavy losses on the German division command. Additionally, the British knew about the operation beforehand due to intelligence, and have been practicing fighting against airborne assaults for months, shifting quite a big number of troops to Crete and fortifying, entrenching and preparing the island for months beforehand.



So what happened when that unarmed and outnumbered Fallschirm division landed in the midst of a hugely superior enemy force, locked in with them on an island?

They ripped the defenses apart. They didn't even have any anti-tank weaponry, and still destroyed all British tanks, including the Matilda tanks.

Endresult: 23000 allied losses, recoverable or unrecoverable, to 5000 axis ones.


Crete was an absolute unicorn and hollywood movie of a military operation. It's the real life equivalent of Connor McGregor beating prime Mike Tyson. And they then did it AGAIN in 1944.



Oh and I'd like to add that the standard K98 SmKh round penetrated 18mm RHA and was fully capable of penetrating a Bren carrier from the front.

Damn, so what your really saying is that falls need buffs ?

I don't see how they are overlapped with ober they can ambush and hold fire waiting for their prey to come isn't that what infiltration troop does?
Paradroping mean you can still ambust enemy weapon team and is more realistic
And why would fall having 5 men and mp40 upgrade made them unique to assgren and Volk?

Damn, so what your really saying is that falls need buffs ?

Nah what I'm saying is Falls were really fucking OP irl

Actually I would like to use this post to bring attention to the battle of Crete, which was a batshit crazy operation that succeeded against all odds.


When the paratroopers landed on Crete, they were hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned. The reinforcements got cut off or shot down, and most of them were unarmed, due to the guns being lost(which of course didn't stop the Australians and British from shooting them, warcrime alert). The German style of leadership,with everyone of every rank involved on the frontline fighting, quickly incurred some heavy losses on the German division command. Additionally, the British knew about the operation beforehand due to intelligence, and have been practicing fighting against airborne assaults for months, shifting quite a big number of troops to Crete and fortifying, entrenching and preparing the island for months beforehand.

Hopelessly and hilariously outgunned? The lutwaffe had just bombed the shit out of the place before they landed and the RAF had to completely withdraw what little planes they had there. The lutwaffe also prevented about 25,000 tons of supplies from reaching Crete by bombing the crap out of the navy well before they got there

They had complete air superiority and the british matildas that were there only used AP rounds, they wouldve been mostly useless against infantry. Saying it was just fallschimjaegers kicking ass is complete nonsense