What to do with OST?

How, in your opinion, should Ostheer be changed

They should not the other faction should nerfed.

I spent about 30 minutes writing a reply in the "The TRUE reason behind OST" thread, but it was locked when I hit the "reply" button. However, it essentially came down to this:

They should not the other faction should nerfed.

OST is a really complicated faction to balance, since it has so many interconnected pieces, and relies much more heavily on combined arms than any other faction. It also has the most "complete" set of tools, so it doesn't have any obvious weaknesses like, for example, USF (no sniper) or UKF (no mobile mortar). Additionally, the vast majority of OST's units scale very far into late-game (grens, pgrens/Schrecks, Pak40), meaning that changes to mid-game units can drastically change late-game game play.

This means that buffing one unit can drastically change a completely different unit. The example I was going to give in the other thread was how buffing the 222 could indirectly make the MG42 much more powerful in the mid game, since a buffed 222 would better defend against snipers, flanking, and LVs. That would in turn make Grens more powerful, since close-combat units would have a harder time getting within range. This type of 'knock on' effect would likely be much less drastic if, for example, the USF Stuart was buffed - I would doubt there would be many threads about the .50-cal being too strong as a result.

Due to all of this, as Vipper said, the only easy solution is to nerf other factions to OST power level - i.e. a return of the "Ost Benchmark" concept. This isn't to say that buffing OST is impossible; it's just exceedingly challenging to do without creating incredibly gimmicky/boring metas (i.e. current Tiger meta, old "Panic Puma" meta, etc.).

I agree with Vipper, tone down USF, OKW, and SU. Ostheer and Brits are only weaker at the moment because they didn't receive the same amount of power creep the other three factions have recieved. Buffing Brits and Ostheer might have more unforeseen consequences.

They should not the other faction should nerfed.

Mostly this.

How many Ostheer needs help threads do people open on coh2.org nowadays? Isn't 1-2 enough? It's getting silly.

How many Ostheer needs help threads do people open on coh2.org nowadays? Isn't 1-2 enough? It's getting silly.

That's just the result of the helplessness and the devs not wanting to fix the fucking faction. It is a farce at this point.

That's just the result of the helplessness and the devs not wanting to fix the fucking faction. It is a farce at this point.

Because devs can't patch noob out of players....

That's just the result of the helplessness and the devs not wanting to fix the fucking faction. It is a farce at this point.

Ever tried playing UKF in this patch? They are WAY worse than Ostheer and yet I don't see a million UKF needs help threads on COH2.org

Because devs can't patch noob out of players....

I don't think WCS was full of "noobs".

/edit

Before someone mentions UKF: it's both a very small sample size (8 games), and most acknowledge that UKF is in a bad place - but it would require a massive rework to fix them (normal mortar, etc.).

Because devs can't patch noob out of players....

Constant top 25 opinion vs the forum trolls opinion. K then.

Ever tried playing UKF in this patch? They are WAY worse than Ostheer and yet I don't see a million UKF needs help threads on COH2.org

Because they got actual buffs.

Constant top 25 opinion vs the forum trolls opinion. K then.

Because they got actual buffs.

You have good Axis ranks but never play Allies. Maybe try playing both sides first and then complain about the balance afterwards. Not trying to be disrespectful but if you only play one side it's almost guaranteed you will end up being biased. I am not saying you are wrong about Ostheer needing some help but your playercard isn't a very convincing argument TBH.

UKF got buffs, but their key weaknesses will remain. I played plenty of games with UKF in the winter preview and was not impressed. They will have a somewhat easier time but certain maps, build orders, doctrines etc. will still make them a huge pain in the ass to play. They will also remain way worse than Soviets and USF.

i dont get all this ostheer thing. riflemen got a small buff and cons got 7 men and suddenly ostheer is widely underpowered? Was it underpowered for 3 years now or what?

Ostheer actually got a 100mp buff recently and peaple still cry for more…

Sure cons 7 men or svt are overperforming, but thats no reason to suddenly start spreading OH tears, the rest is basically the same as 2 years ago, just with a nerfed pak howi and scott and better grens at vet 3.

How much do peaple want?

i dont get all this ostheer thing. riflemen got a small buff and cons got 7 men and suddenly ostheer is widely underpowered? Was it underpowered for 3 years now or what?

Ostheer actually got a 100mp buff recently and peaple still cry for more…

Sure cons 7 men or svt are overperforming, but thats no reason to suddenly start spreading OH tears, the rest is basically the same as 2 years ago, just with a nerfed pak howi and scott and better grens at vet 3.

How much do peaple want?

I think most just want OST to have a 50% win rate, rather than 37% (and USF/Sov having nearly 60%).

As for the rest of your comment, it's just been a slow general 'shift' towards OST being under-performing - not any specific change. I'd guess the 'shift' started just after WFA was released, since OKW was incredibly powerful back then (volk schreck blobs). Instead of fully nerfing OKW, they were only nerfed partly, and USF/Sov were buffed to meet at a mid-point. Meanwhile OST got received nothing.

Now we're in a situation where mainline infantry blobs can beat an MG42 head-on, where grens aren't dominant at max range (they trade w/ vet 3 M1919 rifles and double Bren-IS), and where the panther's high mobility doesn't compensate for its shorter range as a TD (M36 is faster with more range).

I think most just want OST to have a 50% win rate, rather than 37% (and USF/Sov having nearly 60%).

As for the rest of your comment, it's just been a slow general 'shift' towards OST being under-performing - not any specific change. I'd guess the 'shift' started just after WFA was released, since OKW was incredibly powerful back then (volk schreck blobs). Instead of fully nerfing OKW, they were only nerfed partly, and USF/Sov were buffed to meet at a mid-point. Meanwhile OST got received nothing.

Now we're in a situation where mainline infantry blobs can beat an MG42 head-on, where grens aren't dominant at max range (they trade w/ vet 3 M1919 rifles and double Bren-IS), and where the panther's high mobility doesn't compensate for its shorter range as a TD (M36 is faster with more range).

Again be happy that OH has been played this tournament, for the last one where it barely was picked(Command panther). OKW grand offensive is just too good. So only worse players choose OH in the first place resulting in lower winrate

To the rest of your post. Ostheer was barly touched in the last years and for a good reason, becouse it was and is a very good balanced faction. If anything OKW was brought in line with the other factions. But where are the significant buffs over the last lets say 2 years that broke ost? The small riflemen buff surely didnt. Cons 7 men and svt sure did. But those are getting adressed this patch.

Ostheer actally got significant buffs -100mp for t2, vet3 grens that dont get oneshotted. And ofc the bane of OH pack howi and scott got nerfed.

So again where was the patch that broke ost and started this crywave? All of the issues your presenting are old, so you wanna say OH was severly underpowered the whole time and peaple just noticed?

So to conclude, OH might actually be in a better spot than 2 years ago if one adresses the overtuned cons. (which is WOP)

Ever tried playing UKF in this patch? They are WAY worse than Ostheer and yet I don't see a million UKF needs help threads on COH2.org

1) More people own ostheer than UKF
2) UKF are badly designed faction going from up to OP all the time.

Again be happy that OH has been played this tournament, for the last one where it barely was picked(Command panther). OKW grand offensive is just too good.

Not entirely sure what you mean by this. If you mean "be happy OST was played this tournament, because OKW-GO was way better", then that's part of my point. The other factions, OKW included, are simply better choices.

To the rest of your post. Ostheer was barly touched in the last years and for a good reason, becouse it was and is a very good balanced faction. If anything OKW was brought in line with the other factions. But where are the significant buffs over the last lets say 2 years that broke ost? The small riflemen buff surely didnt. Cons 7 men and svt sure did. But those are getting adressed this patch.

Ostheer actally got significant buffs -100mp for t2, vet3 grens that dont get oneshotted. And ofc the bane of OH pack howi and scott got nerfed.

So again where was the patch that broke ost and started this crywave? All of the issues your presenting are old, so you wanna say OH was severly underpowered the whole time and peaple just noticed?

it's just been a slow general 'shift' towards OST being under-performing - not any specific change. I'd guess the 'shift' started just after WFA was released, since OKW was incredibly powerful back then (volk schreck blobs). Instead of fully nerfing OKW, they were only nerfed partly, and USF/Sov were buffed to meet at a mid-point. Meanwhile OST got received nothing.

I can't point you towards a specific patch that broke OST, because no single patch did. It's the accumulation of changes that's caused it to happen. The gradual changes to other units have resulted in OST not performing like it should:

mainline infantry blobs can beat an MG42 head-on, where grens aren't dominant at max range (they trade w/ vet 3 M1919 rifles and double Bren-IS), and where the panther's high mobility doesn't compensate for its shorter range as a TD (M36 is faster with more range).

As for the Pak-howitzer and Scott, they weren't really nerfed - they were turned into RNG-cannons. They still have the exact same AoE/Damage values as before, they just scatter more.

Again be happy that OH has been played this tournament, for the last one where it barely was picked(Command panther). OKW grand offensive is just too good.

To the rest of your post. Ostheer was barly touched in the last years and for a good reason, becouse it was and is a very good balanced faction. If anything OKW was brought in line with the other factions. But where are the significant buffs over the last lets say 2 years that broke ost? The small riflemen buff surely didnt. Cons 7 men and svt sure did. But those are getting adressed this patch.

Ostheer actally got significant buffs -100mp for t2, vet3 grens that dont get oneshotted. And ofc the bane of OH pack howi and scott got nerfed.

So again where was the patch that broke ost and started this crywave? All of the issues your presenting are old, so you wanna say OH was severly underpowered the whole time and peaple just noticed?

Check the patch notes you will find plenty of buffs to allied faction other the buff to riflemen including a tech change in USF and a number of buff to support weapons weapons.

Check the number of support weapons used by USF in the last tournament compared to Ostheer.

Check the patch notes you will find plenty of buffs to allied faction other the buff to riflemen including a tech change in USF and a number of buff to support weapons weapons.

Check the number of support weapons used by USF in the last tournament compared to Ostheer.

And if you check patch notes, you'll notice that over last 2-3 years the only ost units that weren't buffed are P4, pwerfer, sniper, pak and mortar. Some were buffed to the point when they had to be additionally nerfed afterwards.

Check the patch notes you will find plenty of buffs to allied faction other the buff to riflemen including a tech change in USF and a number of buff to support weapons weapons.

Check the number of support weapons used by USF in the last tournament compared to Ostheer.

Actually since the rework of usf none where touched exept the maxim got slight buffs. If anything 50 cal was nerfed ages ago by loosinf supression and vet 1 sprint IIRK. So USF just has better acess to its weapons making it a good faction.

soviets barely saw any change exept the 7 men and some slight adjustments. So i dont wanna hunt ghosts, i care about facts. We cant just mindlessly buff OH becouse we feel like it. Then we will have to buff the allies again etc.

Better of to slightly adjust the values and be done with it. Becouse the only nerf i can see for OH is the loss of puma, which made OH very dominant beforehand.