Is the T70 OP?

Its a lightly armored scout car, not a light tank nor a light tank counter.
It'll never go up against actual light tanks.

Why not? Its autocannon could penetrate 40mm armour with the PzGr.40 at 100 meters. The T70’s armour was 10mm-60mm thick so having a 40% pen chance is pretty reasonable.

The Luchs could stay the same since the PzGr.39 had lower penetration performance.

As vipper would put it - it would create inconsistencies.

In this specific case, you'd see drama from OKW about why luchs can't do it despite having identical weapon.

That and you're forcing a completely different role and timing on the vehicle, trying to shape it in what it clearly isn't and wasn't meant to be.

We actually looked into something similar but an Ostheer 221 would have a major readability issue with the OKW 221. And using the OKW 221 would be such a significant downgrade in durability that it'd likely be a net nerf.

I feel like people could manage to see the difference. The OKW has more command style abilities, could we just call the OKW one a command scout car? Similar to cmd p4/panther distinction from regular p4 and panther

We actually looked into something similar but an Ostheer 221 would have a major readability issue with the OKW 221. And using the OKW 221 would be such a significant downgrade in durability that it'd likely be a net nerf.

The current implementation of the 221/223 is bad.

Make them separate units.

Redesign the 221 as a cheap counter to sniper and cars. Adjust price
Show Spoiler

Redesigning 223 as an economical/support unit unit only with little fighting power. Adjust price.

On the matter of inconsistencies they already exist.

The Luch and 222 use guns not only with different stats but also with completely different mechanism.

snip

The armor values are small enough because as you say, it's only meant to chance slightly the dynamic on the current match ups.
I haven't tested the different match ups on the move (nor how much scatter would be a factor) but i do threw several light vehicles against the T70.

The change is a clear nerf on the T70, but not in the areas which i think are fine to remain strong (no opinion on vet 3 atm).

Don't focus in a single match up, cause i did consider the changes in regards to all other factions. Ex:

Flak HT: the buff it get is only focus on slight AT. It will still get screwed over by the AT focus vehicles (Stuart/Su76/AEC) and if caught not deployed and supported. T70/AAHT will still wreck it but i think those vehicles would take more damage and could probably die if they eat a rak shot and/or faust.

221/222:
The point to avoid the whole 444/666 spam is to cut down the AI once upgraded and that it can't deal with more armored vehicles such as the Stuart. The 221 been dirt cheap at it's old cost (200mp/10f) would still see use even with lower HP (we use it with 200HP back before).
We had 444/666 because the unit was ninja bugged at 15f while retaining AI and enough AT to deal with 320HP T70 and AEC, which was a heavier investment.

My view in the problem is the following one:

-T70 at 320HP with old AI was OP. So it was nerfed and HP was increased to 400HP.
-That broke the OH match up, specially after removing Mobile Defense clutch. I don't think you want a 30f 222 to deal with it.
-a 400HP 222 might make things better for OH in the SU match up while not been relevant at all against the USF (AAHT/Stuart). It might cause problems against the UKF match up, but you don't bring an AEC in the first place as an AI vehicle at all and without AI on the 222 while would you need to counter it. My only concern is probably how a 221 + 222 would work against the UKF match up.

Whats the argument against Pios getting AT rifles again? I really do like the current LV matchups and power levels for the most part, and toying around with those is going to have a lot of affects on balance.

While I like the idea of 222 being an upgrade from 221, I doubt it will get implemented. I'd rather the option for a stubby p4 at around the 13 minute mark if we're changing up vehicles.

I think the biggest issue with T-70 is its simply too strong unchecked. Pio or ostruppen, now that I think about it, AT rifles would be enough to 'fix' the t-70. 222 or 444 won't run amok indefinitely. At some point chip damage will force a perfectly mircoed 222 away. There is no way to chip at a perfectly microed T-70 that doesn't involve 300+ manpower and the t-70 isn't even forced away in all situations.

Whats the argument against Pios getting AT rifles again? I really do like the current LV matchups and power levels for the most part, and toying around with those is going to have a lot of affects on balance.

While I like the idea of 222 being an upgrade from 221, I doubt it will get implemented. I'd rather the option for a stubby p4 at around the 13 minute mark if we're changing up vehicles.

I think the biggest issue with T-70 is its simply too strong unchecked. Pio or ostruppen, now that I think about it, AT rifles would be enough to 'fix' the t-70. 222 or 444 won't run amok indefinitely. At some point chip damage will force a perfectly mircoed 222 away. There is no way to chip at a perfectly microed T-70 that doesn't involve 300+ manpower and the t-70 isn't even forced away in all situations.

Untested grounds vs a unit which already existed and used to be part of OH roster.

You're trading 30 fuel to kill 70. And that's only if I happen to have AT gun and snare nearby already, because it'll take you less than a second to kill it... The problem is what exactly?

If 90 Muni for a squad wipe is OP. Then so is 50 mini for a 70 fuel investment

We keep hearing the same braindead analogy when the two things aren't even remotely comparable.

1. You can sweep for mines for your T70. You can't sweep for each of your 6+ capping squads unless you A-move 6 squads together all the time.

2. It's never 50 muni for a T70, unless opposing player was super bad or super greedy. Teller mines require a great deal of luck for the enemy to specifically run over that spot and require a great deal of guesswork. It's on average more than 200 muni of teller mines for one actual hit if you calculate it properly.

Also, experienced players will avoid/sweep/attack ground the most commonly traversed spots. Teller mines are also often detonated by stray shells.

3. Demos had monstrous AoE and got multiple models even if it wasn't a wipe. It created massive squad-loss swings very early in the game, effectively ending the game before we even got to the LV phase. And most importantly, capping and squad preservation are the core mechanics of the game (just not to GenMe), and not being able to do the most basic things in the first 10 minutes of the game are in no way comparable to possibly running over a mine much later in the game.


I've certainly lost T70s and IS2s (and hence the games) to teller mines. But my opponents invested several hundred munitions, AND I got sloppy. It's not even remotely comparable to the cancer of instant-win demos which had no possible counter.

My view in the problem is the following one:

-T70 at 320HP with old AI was OP. So it was nerfed and HP was increased to 400HP.
-That broke the OH match up, specially after removing Mobile Defense clutch. I don't think you want a 30f 222 to deal with it.
-a 400HP 222 might make things better for OH in the SU match up while not been relevant at all against the USF (AAHT/Stuart). It might cause problems against the UKF match up, but you don't bring an AEC in the first place as an AI vehicle at all and without AI on the 222 while would you need to counter it. My only concern is probably how a 221 + 222 would work against the UKF match up.

Or just drop the T70’s HP down to 360 and you’re done.

How about ost players build p4 counter like the old days? Support your pak with 1ko teller mines meanwhile

Faction is great already with so much options and super strong t4 units

We keep hearing the same braindead analogy when the two things aren't even remotely comparable.

1. You can sweep for mines for your T70. You can't sweep for each of your 6+ capping squads unless you A-move 6 squads together all the time.

Okay but those are squads. Were talking about a 70 fuel investment that is supposed to cover way more ground than any one squad

And you wouldn't have to stop sweeping just cause the teller can't 1 hit kill. If it leaves a t70 with 20hp that's still a huge threat. Should you not sweep for your tanks even though it doesn't 1-hit kill them?

Unlike the demo nerf, which made it so you don't need a sweeper at all. Btw I already said demos deserved a nerf, chill on calling me braindead

2. It's never 50 muni for a T70, unless opposing player was super bad or super greedy. Teller mines require a great deal of luck for the enemy to specifically run over that spot and require a great deal of guesswork. It's on average more than 200 muni of teller mines for one actual hit if you calculate it properly.

Less luck than needed with a demo, and you needed 90 Muni. With a demo you needed the squad to be on top at the same time you were looking at it. Cause it requires your input to get the kill

Also, experienced players will avoid/sweep/attack ground the most commonly traversed spots. Teller mines are also often detonated by stray shells.

Experienced players wouldn't put their squads in the center of capture points, aka the most common way to nuke squads. Demos can get detonated too...

3. Demos had monstrous AoE and got multiple models even if it wasn't a wipe. It created massive squad-loss swings very early in the game, effectively ending the game before we even got to the LV phase. And most importantly, capping and squad preservation are the core mechanics of the game (just not to GenMe), and not being able to do the most basic things in the first 10 minutes of the game are in no way comparable to possibly running over a mine much later in the game.

Much later? The t70 regularly comes out before 10 minutes. Losing a 70 fuel in the midgame is as much or more a game ender than losing one squad to a demo early game

It's not even remotely comparable to the cancer of instant-win demos which had no possible counter.

And neither is the nerf I'm suggesting for them. I suggested a 20dmg nerf, nothing more. Doesn't even come close to the nerf demos got

And again demos deserved a nerf. But we're talking about engineer tools capable of one-hit kills on units. Definitely comparable

On top of that I said they should only nerf teller ohk IF they are nerfing t70

I bet ost players are boomer generation, 40 plus old ass, selfish after enjoying a decade of escalating asset prices.

Like there was a period between last t70 nerf and wc2019, and no one complains about t70 op.

And then these self entitled players saw wc19, saw low ost winrates, tried to ape tiger stalling, suddenly they want more nerfs to t70? A weak unit in 2v2 and above!

Stinky tiger stallers, all of them!

Like there was a period between last t70 nerf and wc2019, and no one complains about t70 op.

The last non bug fix patch for the T70 was the unit stat changes on April 25th, 2014

Armor from 55 to 70

Manpower from 160 to 200

Reload from 2.15 to 1.8-2.2

Fuel from 55 to 70

I'm fairly certain that between April 25th, 2014 and July 21st, 2019 there were threads complaining about the T70.

I bet ost players are boomer generation, 40 plus old ass, selfish after enjoying a decade of escalating asset prices.

Like there was a period between last t70 nerf and wc2019, and no one complains about t70 op.

And then these self entitled players saw wc19, saw low ost winrates, tried to ape tiger stalling, suddenly they want more nerfs to t70? A weak unit in 2v2 and above!

Stinky tiger stallers, all of them!

Poopy! Stinky! Uh-Oh! Tiger stall!

Have you ever played Ostheer? I used to think USF and UKF were op, Untill I played them.

Please, just play an as Ostheer if you haven’t. My Ost play improved greatly after I played some soviet, USF and UKF. Know your enemies!

The last non bug fix patch for the T70 was the unit stat changes on April 25th, 2014


I'm fairly certain that between April 25th, 2014 and July 21st, 2019 there were threads complaining about the T70.

My memory may be wrong, there is another patch nerfing t70 recon vet and moving accuracy of sort.

I also don't remember seeing t70 op thread for a long time, while there have been tons of jackson op whining

My memory may be wrong, there is another patch nerfing t70 recon vet and moving accuracy of sort.

I also don't remember seeing t70 op thread for a long time, while there have been tons of jackson op whining

You can search through that thread if you'd like, it has all of the official (released) patches in it. From what I can see, the T70 has had very few changes over the years, and none have been specifically towards moving accuracy or recon mode/vet. There were some tweaks to scatter ages ago (2013), since near release the T70 was nearly unusable (it couldn't hit anything).

"T70 OP" threads come and go depending on other factors, most notably the availability of the Puma for OST. OKW simply doesn't have a problem (as far as I'm aware) with the T70 due to the Puma being a non-doc vehicle that's available fairly early on. Ost has a much harder time because their only vehicle solutions are either doc locked, or involve waiting until T3 to get a P4 or Stug, by which point the heavy MP bleed that the T70 will have inflicted will cost OST the game.

However, simply searching "T70 OP site:coh2.org" (without quotes) provides a LOT of results.


As for the influx "M36 OP" threads lately, its simply a symptom of the current state of the game. If you go through the history of the game, just about every unit has been OP at one point or another; and right now a lot of people think the M36 is.

We keep hearing the same braindead analogy when the two things aren't even remotely comparable.

1. You can sweep for mines for your T70. You can't sweep for each of your 6+ capping squads unless you A-move 6 squads together all the time.

That's a lie, you can't be swipping everywhere for your light tank, the main advantage of a light tank is the mobility and reactivity which doesn't have a engineer squad. The OS of a light vehicle with a mine is as broken as demo was, now I guess it is still in-game due to Ostheer lack of stock light tank.

Needs lower armour so a 222 with a gren for support can force it away, currently means you cant cap with solo squads as wehr or it WILL wipe that unit even if you retreat early

Needs lower armour so a 222 with a gren for support can force it away, currently means you cant cap with solo squads as wehr or it WILL wipe that unit even if you retreat early

Why 70 fuel T3 tank should be forced by T2 30 fuel scout car? All grens would do here is to zone it away from 222, at least until T-70 murders them.

The last non bug fix patch for the T70 was the unit stat changes on April 25th, 2014


I'm fairly certain that between April 25th, 2014 and July 21st, 2019 there were threads complaining about the T70.

T70 was heavily reworked in 2017 and had a major recon nerf in 2018. 2017 gave it an extra 80 HP with substantial AoE nerfs.
https://www.coh2.org/topic/4307/company-of-heroes-2-changelog/post/599881

https://www.coh2.org/topic/4307/company-of-heroes-2-changelog/post/709717