Heavy Gammon bombs/ smoke

Pls provide you most recent replay of a Coh2 game vs players with the latest patch and will see.

With all fairness, you are the one making a claim here, the burden of proof falls on you. UKF have had smoke in conjunction with anti-TW/bunker methods (including the subject of this thread) for a very, very long time now at the exact same timings where you would acquire HGB. Why is this a problem? Is there any evidence whatsoever that it even is one?

With all fairness, you are the one making a claim here, the burden of proof falls on you.

Katitof is simply trolling as usual in forum for game he does not actually play so I find that he, asking for replays is rather hilarious.

UKF have had smoke in conjunction with anti-TW/bunker methods (including the subject of this thread) for a very, very long time now at the exact same timings where you would acquire HGB. Why is this a problem? Is there any evidence whatsoever that it even is one?

If you are actually interested to see if there is an issue, I suggest you start a winter preview game and try to use this tactic.

As I have pointed the problem was there from DECEMBER 19th 2017 and since recently UKF has access to AT snares and UKF have entered scope it is an opportunity to fix it.

I'm down for a game in the winter preview Vipper, I can play OKW and you can play UKF and wreck my trucks with the OP Gammon Bomb/smoke. Let me know.

If you are actually interested to see if there is an issue, I suggest you start a winter preview game and try to use this tactic.

Have you? All anyone here is asking for is a replay of this in action.

As I have pointed the problem was there from DECEMBER 19th 2017 and since recently UKF has access to AT snares and UKF have entered scope it is an opportunity to fix it.

Okay, so you think HGB on Tommies are a problem in general. This would have been a more successful premise for a thread, I think. I disagree though, and moreso with moving it to Sappers since they're already particularly overburdened as an engineer, AT, and assault unit. I honestly have never seen or experienced HGB on Tommies to be a problem considering its short range and high cost, and this is again even in conjunction with existing UKF smoke sources like the mortar pit and (more practically) smoke shells.

I think I would need to see a replay or a video of this being a problem to think otherwise. Removing HGB from Tommies strikes me as an unnecessary nerf to Hammer at this time.

the problem [since 2017]

The problem since 2017:

"Super Heavy tanks" where not broken to being with, they become broken when they tried to "fix" them.

And this is quite a common pattern on the Coh 2 patches history, units become OP and then UP again and persisting problems being fixed at a very low rate.

Heavies were broken in a sense that they were never used beside sometimes the Pershing and the Elefant in large team games. OKW was designed around the KT and also OST is supposed to regularly bring on a Tiger. The game is designed with heavies in mind, and to be honest it would be a shame if the game did not include them properly. But that is very subjective.

Balance team decided to bring them back to the game again which was a very good thing. So they did a complete rework of how heavies function. Turns out that you can't foresee all consequences of a complex set of changes. No surprise here.

It is a bit of a shame that it took multiple months until they might finally be fixed, but as a matter of fact the meta now is not really worse than the meta we had before gameplay wise. And demanding regular updates and fixes from people that spent their free time on it would be inappropriate, especially since they have done an exceptional job in the last two years. CoH2 has never been better and strategies more diverse, even if there are issues and current metas. Earlier every faction had three commanders at best that were somewhat viable. There was no selection. Now you at least have to pick a few from a group of viable ones.

Well, back to topic, and I think this will likely be my last post since we will start running in circles now:

I don't think the HGB will become such an issue that we need to rework it before the patch. Spending so much time on reworking a minor ability will leave more glaring issues unfixed. The game is better off with other fixes. And if it really turns out to be a major issue, then a hot fix will do in a month or two.

Okay, so you think HGB on Tommies are a problem in general. This would have been a more successful premise for a thread, I think.

To be honest he made that point pretty clear. His issue is IS having both smoke and the HGB.


However the newest commander (the one with assault tommies) gave UKF a smoke mortar from the get go. Still there were no huge issues reported. Also you could just use the smoke shell of Cromwells and what not. Now it will just become slightly more accessible, that's all. In my eyes not enough to invest into potentially longer rebalances.

To be honest, I also find it also utterly rude that the person claiming there is a problem is consistently refusing to play the preview or to give any replays of the problem. The issue is just a bunch of wild theories at this point, and the whole thread is asking for replays showing something that everyone says does not exist, and that even the modmaker say will open up the game. No need for people to get aggressive when one is asked to provide some replays or being told that the idea is just undeniably bad.

The problem since 2017:

Now check how many thread are out having "NahVW Grenade" in there title yet for some "strange" reason it has been decided to be fix in this patch while I among other have brought it up years ago.

Now why are we going down this road? I have already asked you to start over.

In your opinion are HGB in good spot now and in what use?

Have you? All anyone here is asking for is a replay of this in action.

Yes I have, have you?

Okay, so you think HGB on Tommies are a problem in general. This would have been a more successful premise for a thread, I think.

Read the previews post instead of jumping in the middle of debate and actually in its worse part.

I disagree though, and moreso with moving it to Sappers since they're already particularly overburdened as an engineer, AT, and assault unit. I honestly have never seen or experienced HGB on Tommies to be a problem considering its short range and high cost, and this is again even in conjunction with existing UKF smoke sources like the mortar pit and (more practically) smoke shells.

How many times have you seen the ability being used?

I think I would need to see a replay or a video of this being a problem to think otherwise. Removing HGB from Tommies strikes me as an unnecessary nerf to Hammer at this time.

The reason the preview exist in the first place is so that you can test things. So go ahead and test instead of asking me to create video for you to see.

Heavies were broken in a sense that they were never used beside sometimes the Pershing and the Elefant in large team games. OKW was designed around the KT and also OST is supposed to regularly bring on a Tiger. The game is designed with heavies in mind, and to be honest it would be a shame if the game did not include them properly. But that is very subjective.

Balance team decided to bring them back to the game again which was a very good thing. So they did a complete rework of how heavies function. Turns out that you can't foresee all consequences of a complex set of changes. No surprise here.

It is a bit of a shame that it took multiple months until they might finally be fixed, but as a matter of fact the meta now is not really worse than the meta we had before gameplay wise. And demanding regular updates and fixes from people that spent their free time on it would be inappropriate, especially since they have done an exceptional job in the last two years. CoH2 has never been better and strategies more diverse, even if there are issues and current metas. Earlier every faction had three commanders at best that were somewhat viable. There was no selection. Now you at least have to pick a few from a group of viable ones.

We are drifting off topic now, but my point is one could had used his limited resources in fixing other things than trying to solve a complicated issue as Super heavy tank especially with a double buff. One for instance could start with toning down TDs....

At this point and once more I would like to take the time to congratulate everyone involved that help crate the patches for the work the put. They are doing a great job.

Well, back to topic, and I think this will likely be my last post since we will start running in circles now:

I don't think the HGB will become such an issue that we need to rework it before the patch. Spending so much time on reworking a minor ability will leave more glaring issues unfixed. The game is better off with other fixes. And if it really turns out to be a major issue, then a hot fix will do in a month or two.

Is simply do not agree with the argument especially since the same patch deals with a much smaller issue like the "NahVW Grenade" and correctly in my opinion.

Now check how many thread are out having "NahVW Grenade" in there title yet for some "strange" reason it has been decided to be fix in this patch

Because the Sturmtiger, unlike Heavy Gammon Bombs, has frequently been the subject of discussion over the past year(s) and the general consensus about that unit is that it's still a bit underperforming, so the NahVW ability is being changed as a means to give it a little buff.

Because the Sturmtiger, unlike Heavy Gammon Bombs, has frequently been the subject of discussion over the past year(s) and the general consensus about that unit is that it's still a bit underperforming, so the NahVW ability is being changed as a means to give it a little buff.

The ability correctly is becoming better designed and relevant. The same should be done with a number of abilities including HGB which currently are simply cheesy and about to become even more cheesy with change to the UKF.

And my question remain

In your opinion are HGB in good spot now and in what use?

Classic

Is this really an issue? Soviets have also been able to blow up OKW trucks and bunkers and everything else by spamming Penals and using smoke since forever but it has never been an issue.

Penals + a mortar have been able to do this since the game went live

Can even do it with engineer squads and demo charges

USF can do it with demo charges (combat engineers or paras) and any of their two mortar options and/or pack Howie

Even OST have joined the party with a mortar and their demo pioneers in that one commander!

Its fine

Heh blowing up okw trucks by running into almosy melee range.

*pyrotommies looks away nervously*

Suggestion:
Anvil
Heavy Engineers upgrade cost reduced (from 60 to 30?), moving penalty removed, Vicker-K removed, armor bonus removed, (one could change stens to Enfield to make them ore defensive oriented).

Reasons:
The upgrade suffer from an identity crisis. Provides repair for a support unit but also provides a smg unit with an LMG which is bad combination while cripples Ro.E fighting capability with moving penalty and make the use of AT grenades very difficult.

Hammer
Gammon bomb renamed "Heavy Sappers". Now an upgrade (for 40? munition). Provides Ro.E. with better stens (Grease gun level?) and allow them to use they Heavy gammon bomb, (maybe add the armor bonus, upgrade take up 1 or 2 weapons slots.

HGM now an anti-garrison damage vs vehicles now down to 200, no engine damage or stun (maybe a weapon disable).

Reasons
Solve the problem with with IS, creates a weapon with a clear role, gives hammer access to CQB unit.


(edited some things)

Suggestion:
Anvil
Heavy Engineers upgrade cost reduced (from 60 to 30?), moving penalty removed, Vicker-K removed.

Reasons:
The upgrade suffer from an identity crisis. Provides repair for a support unit but also provides a smg unit with an LMG which is bad combination while cripples Ro.E fighting capability with moving penalty and make the use of AT grenades very difficult.

Actually, the upgrade is meant for more emplacement centric gameplay and their maintenance, where LMG would serve them in defending from garrisoned emplacement and getting churchills back into the fight quicker. No identitiy crisis here, just incapability to identify units role.

Hammer
Gammon bomb renamed "Heavy Sappers". Now an upgrade (for 40? munition). Provides Ro.E. with better stens (Grease gun level?) and allow them to use they Heavy gammon bomb. HGM now an anti-garrison damage vs vehicles now down to 200, no engine damage or stun (maybe a weapon disable).

Why fix what isn't broken?