Ostheer T4 Non-Combat Grenadier Buff Idea

Let's have discussion without the pokes and jabs at the people making comments that you disagree with.

Main issue with 5 men Grenadiers at this point is stacking on the LMG which would make it one of the strongest infantry units in the game since you'd have to chew through 4 models to reach the LMG and Grenadiers per model have good stats. This is on top of being a snare squad with rifle grenades.

One the ideas we've been thinking of ideas, but it's not the easiest as it might stack too much power, but we will see what turns out.

We've talked about things like faster cap speeds end game after T4 so Ost will start pushing the offensive; reinforce has been discussed, though there was talk about a global cost reduction on Ostheer infantry in reinforce.

Two things:

1) Free medkits for Grens/Pioneers/Osttruppen once T4 is up would be really nice.

2) Why not give them the 5th man at T4, but make it a horrible 5th man? So either let squads upgrade with:

A. 5man Grens upgrade once T4 is up, the 5th model is an Osttruppen model with 1.10 target size and Osttruppen stats in and out of cover. When last model remaining is the Osttruppen model have him fire the LMG42 with the Osttruppen stats.
B. Once T4 is up allow 4man non-LMG42 Grens to receive 2 Osttruppen models and become a 6 man squad that has snare and rifle nade but no weapon slots left.

How are people not OK with reinforce cost/time and veterancy gain buffs for thematic or whatever reasons but then perfectly fine with adding a whole extra guy to the squad at the cost of the traditional LMG upgrade?

Likewise I'm not sure about free medkits since that is, again, something German Infantry does uniquely. Price reductions and/or recharge time bonuses could be nice though.

How are people not OK with reinforce cost/time and veterancy gain buffs for thematic or whatever reasons but then perfectly fine with adding a whole extra guy to the squad at the cost of the traditional LMG upgrade?
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Jaeger command squad is basically a 5 man gren with g43.
The idea is not as odd as a reinforce cost reduction thematically speaking

Jaeger command squad is basically a 5 man gren with g43.
The idea is not as odd as a reinforce cost reduction thematically speaking

And JCS is not a grenadier squad; it is even limited to one to make it more unique thematically.

Late game Grens pre vet-3 are going to bleed rather horribly; this simply gives every 10th man free, and faster, while simultaneously increasing their veterancy gain speed so they can attain their durability bonus earlier in the late game. I do not know why this is considered odd. 5-man vet 0 grenadiers will bleed just as badly, only now there are more of them dying at a time.

And it will never be.
Grens are cheapest squad with cheapest upgrades next to cons.
Grens were never meant to be self sufficient, if that is what you are looking for, you are playing wrong faction. There is a reason why they have best ai support weapons in the same tier.

the tier is irrelevant in the lategame... as i said early to mid its all ok with mgs and sniper/morter etc. But in the late not.

Infantry sections have lowest vet bonuses of all mainlines.
Cons have very low base firepower and have no stock weapon upgrade or any upgrade until late mid/late game.
USF doesn't have best team weapons or reinforcement halftrucks behind them from the get go.
Understanding differences between factions is hard, isn't it?

Inf sections viable in the lategame ---yes
Rifle viable in the lategame ---yes
Cons viable in the lategame ---yes

Grens viable in the lategame ---NO

idk what u dont get.... OST is not viable in the Lategame T4 is shit and OST inf cant fight other mainline inf. The times are over where OST can rely on Teamweapon play.

we are talking about what... 20-40 MP in the earlygame to make a faction viable with T4 upgrade and make it playable again.

And all of them are much more expensive or have much worse support.
There is no problem in expensive unit beating cheap unit of the same role.

Make them cost more and therefore better in the lategame

The only LMG that's better then what they got belongs to obers, so that isn't happening.

And gues what.. Obers are viable in the lategame.

If you people want to play UKF or OKW so much, you'd have to switch to UKF or OKW, ost isn't going to magically change into one of them just because you flood the place with tears.

i want a viable OST that has a chance in the late and is Tournament comparable

the main problem is the wipes by sherman/IS2/scott which is caused by the 4 man type inf

the main problem is the wipes by sherman/IS2/scott which is caused by the 4 man type inf

Which is reduced by the 0.8 DR that is gained at vet 3.

Which is why they gain vet quicker in this proposal.

where were u when UKF got a snare, usf gets a morter, no double sniper for SU and HMG got 4 Men.


Why not the 5men when u got T4 and ur grens vet3 ?

or make them 280 and the option to get 2 LMG... or make the lmg better.

There is a quite a difference from a newish faction getting a snare and getting 25% more models just slapped onto a squad thay was designed and tweaked for the better part of a decade without.
Look at the trouble 7 man cons are causing and they dont have most of their firepower concentrated onto 1 model (which is like so to offset the low models, incase you didnt know, which im certain you didnt)

Again, usf got a mortar because garrisons were an issue. A newish faction lacking fundimental tools experimentally proved to not work as the strain on having ti tech nades was too inflexible for what was supposed to be the most flexible faction.

For the 2 man sniper, for years i had been offering solutions to the issue and was still fighting against it after launch so.....

And hmg getting 4 men? Are you talking about back in BETA? like before the game was actually released? Before the game features were firmed up and things like penatration wasnt dynamic, scatter was fixed at all ranges, shreks had aoe like tanks, the elefant was a stock unit? Back then? Id say since that was before the game was released and not many years later we could let that one slide under "faction not actually completed and still up in the air" Territory. Ost if very well established now and 5 man squad durability can be attained otherwise without screwing with faction design.

Which is reduced by the 0.8 DR that is gained at vet 3.

Which is why they gain vet quicker in this proposal.

Why not just cut out the middle man and give them the DR at t4?

Why not just cut out the middle man and give them the DR at t4?

What do you put in vet 3 then?

What do you put in vet 3 then?

The rec acc buff that used to be at vet 3.

The rec acc buff that used to be at vet 3.

That'd basically be making vet 3 Grenadiers as durable as vet 3 Rangers. Just with some ugly math. 0.7*0.8 = 0.56 "effective" model "hp". I'm really not sure that's a great idea at all.

For reference, vetted Obersoldaten have like 0.5 RA on a 4 person squad; Grenadiers would be only slightly less resistant to bullet type weapons, and moreso versus AOE types.

EDIT: I think some of you guys really underrate damage reduction; this effects basically every single weapon in the game minus crits and it basically stacks on RA when you consider accuracy-based weapons, and Grenadiers already start at a respectable 0.91 RA.

That'd basically be making vet 3 Grenadiers as durable as vet 3 Rangers. Just with some ugly math. 0.7*0.8 = 0.56 "effective" model "hp". I'm really not sure that's a great idea at all.

For reference, vetted Obersoldaten have like 0.5 RA on a 4 person squad; Grenadiers would be only slightly less resistant to bullet type weapons, and moreso versus AOE types.

EDIT: I think some of you guys really underrate damage reduction; this effects basically every single weapon in the game minus crits and it basically stacks on RA when you consider accuracy-based weapons, and Grenadiers already start at a respectable 0.91 RA.

Could split the difference then. 10% DR from vet and 10% from t4? Id like their late game durability to not be tied exclusively to not losing the squishiest mainline in the game..

TBH I dont think infantry changes for late game will help. The problem becomes with MP bleed and excessive amount of fuel. The Brumbar is more than enough late game to kill Allied infantry.

Give Grens stun grenades at vet1 and have bp3 unlock free med kits

Reduce gren pop instead of reinforce cost. A large problem with t4 in 1v1 is that you can only field two panthers/brumbars, meanwhile other factions will be able to field 3 premiums comfortably. This can be traced to the weaker and cheaper squad mechanic. You end up having to field more mainlines to make up for the weak squads, but they still have the same pop. I like the idea of having to manage more squads as a skill mechanic, but it shouldn't limit the factions potential.

The other issue with grens is anemic damage at their preferred range. Maybe your gren can 1v1 a squad at long range, but if they do you'll just barely win after minutes, yet a rifle squad up close to a gren squad will eviscerate them within seconds. OST simply can't bleed an opponent with good play unless they park in front of your MG. I did the math once, and grens at 30 range do like only 20 manpower damage a minute once you subtract the incoming damage. The other issue with damage is that grens can't protect the team weapons that are supposed to be the core of the faction. Squads can simply waltz by a defending gren squad and decrew the HMG.