Ostheer T4 Non-Combat Grenadier Buff Idea

If you asked me this 2 years ago, i would say 5th Pio man at BP3.

I disagree, because it gives gren some utility, when escorting HMGs they can provide some heal to it, useful for holding the line.

I disagree aswell on making heal free. Its not something you simply abuse. Veteran squad gives it for free because it is a payed upgrade that locks out the LMG42 (its iconic upgrade)

If grens should be buff anyway it should focus on their midgame potential, since they are not lategame oriented nor early game powerhouse.

I agree as well about the med kit. Ost is a combined arms faction, their infantry being able to to keep their other units at full health is on point with faction design and something i would sorely miss is removed.

Om the topic, i think the 20% damage reduction for grens should be a t4 perk not an earned trait via vet. Ilocked behind vet it means if you lose a vetted squad late game you are much further back and much more likley to love the squad again. If its to be a late game buff it should be attatched to a late game tier.

OST has no inf problem in the lategame ...

OST has no inf in the lategame ...

fixed your sentence

What is the problem with the 5 men Grenadier in t4 again?

What is the problem with the 5 men Grenadier in t4 again?

Faction identity, homogenization, takes away from the doctrine with the 5 man squads and the same can be achieved with a damage reduction without messing with the other components

What is the problem with the 5 men Grenadier in t4 again?

Besides the fact that a doctrine already does this, they'd be the highest DPS infantry squad and presumably still only cost 240mp to build. (Plus you could still presumably add the LMG42 to the squad... you quickly run into the situation where this single squad could be doing something like 20 DPS at max range.)

I was specifically looking for non-combat buffs since I think replaceability is a major issue for Ostheer infantry considering their high reinforce costs and the absence of any survivability veterancy until vet 3.

I should have clarified, however, that I think the sbps pop cap reduction should be a stock thing (I'm not sure it's actually a bonus which can be granted midgame in any case). Grenadiers having the same population cap as 5-men infantry squads (or conscripts for that matter) seems a bit off to me.

What is the problem with the 5 men Grenadier in t4 again?

Main issue with 5 men Grenadiers at this point is stacking on the LMG which would make it one of the strongest infantry units in the game since you'd have to chew through 4 models to reach the LMG and Grenadiers per model have good stats. This is on top of being a snare squad with rifle grenades.

One the ideas we've been thinking of ideas, but it's not the easiest as it might stack too much power, but we will see what turns out.

We've talked about things like faster cap speeds end game after T4 so Ost will start pushing the offensive; reinforce has been discussed, though there was talk about a global cost reduction on Ostheer infantry in reinforce.

Why can't the 5 man upgrade work akin to the 7-man cons, where you have to make a choice between getting the LMG42 OR getting the late-game 5 man upgrade?

Assuming this is placed in the T4 building, it would also make T4 a viable and desirable choice in every game mode, whereas currently T4 is completely lackluster in 1v1.

Why can't the 5 man upgrade work akin to the 7-man cons, where you have to make a choice between getting the LMG42 OR getting the late-game 5 man upgrade?

Assuming this is placed in the T4 building, it would also make T4 a viable and desirable choice in every game mode, whereas currently T4 is completely lackluster in 1v1.

I mean, that's already how German Infantry works (albeit minus the T4 requirement) and I'm not sure what could be done to replace it there.

They fill AT role and AI role.
What more do you expect? Heavy tank role? Scout plane role?

That would be quite interesting. Imagine pg taking flight and initiating the stuka overpass.

Why can't grens have good defensive vet bonuses. It currently has the 2nd worst defensive vet bonuses of any main line.

I mean, that's already how German Infantry works (albeit minus the T4 requirement) and I'm not sure what could be done to replace it there.

Sure, but keep in mind the Veteran Squad Leader does a bunch of things. It gives a G43, 10 % weapon reload, 10 % accuracy and 10 % RA, in addition to free med kits. There's no reason to copy this specific upgrade.

The default T4 one could offer different bonuses that are equally as appealing, but not the same as the VSL from German Infantry.

Why can't grens have good defensive vet bonuses. It currently has the 2nd worst defensive vet bonuses of any main line.

Because they have good offensive bonuses and LMG.
You can't have everything.
Also, their vet is pretty standard for mainline.

Main issue with 5 men Grenadiers at this point is stacking on the LMG which would make it one of the strongest infantry units in the game since you'd have to chew through 4 models to reach the LMG and Grenadiers per model have good stats. This is on top of being a snare squad with rifle grenades.

One the ideas we've been thinking of ideas, but it's not the easiest as it might stack too much power, but we will see what turns out.

We've talked about things like faster cap speeds end game after T4 so Ost will start pushing the offensive; reinforce has been discussed, though there was talk about a global cost reduction on Ostheer infantry in reinforce.

what about the option to add 5th member by cancelling out the mg42 when in t4, just like the doctrine. give the doctrine something else in return

what about the option to add 5th member by cancelling out the mg42 when in t4, just like the doctrine. give the doctrine something else in return

As I pointed out when the 7 conscripts upgrade become available to Soviet the same upgrade should become available for grenadiers for the same reason. The bonus could be the same and would be mutually exclusive with lmg or g43s or g43 upgrade.

As I pointed out when the 7 conscripts upgrade become available to Soviet the same upgrade should become available for grenadiers for the same reason.

Grens don't scale past 10th minute because of no firepower due to no stock weapon upgrade?
That's a new one.

Grens don't scale past 10th minute because of no firepower due to no stock weapon upgrade?
That's a new one.

Feel free to install the game and provide a replay where you vetted the grenadier you build after minute 10 vs dual bar Riflemen or dual bren infatry sections.

Grens don't scale past 10th minute because of no firepower due to no stock weapon upgrade?
That's a new one.

no its just not enough firerpower to hold of alied inf in the lategame.

Because they have good offensive bonuses and LMG.
You can't have everything.
Also, their vet is pretty standard for mainline.

u mean like USF rifles or UKF sections? or 7Man cons ?

all of them scale well into the lategame...and all of these factions can easily get "better" Inf units in the lategame.

Faction identity, homogenization, takes away from the doctrine with the 5 man squads and the same can be achieved with a damage reduction without messing with the other components

where were u when UKF got a snare, usf gets a morter, no double sniper for SU and HMG got 4 Men.


Why not the 5men when u got T4 and ur grens vet3 ?

or make them 280 and the option to get 2 LMG... or make the lmg better.

no its just not enough firerpower to hold of alied inf in the lategame.

And it will never be.
Grens are cheapest squad with cheapest upgrades next to cons.
Grens were never meant to be self sufficient, if that is what you are looking for, you are playing wrong faction. There is a reason why they have best ai support weapons in the same tier.

u mean like USF rifles or UKF sections? or 7Man cons ?

Infantry sections have lowest vet bonuses of all mainlines.
Cons have very low base firepower and have no stock weapon upgrade or any upgrade until late mid/late game.
USF doesn't have best team weapons or reinforcement halftrucks behind them from the get go.
Understanding differences between factions is hard, isn't it?

all of them scale well into the lategame...and all of these factions can easily get "better" Inf units in the lategame.

And all of them are much more expensive or have much worse support.
There is no problem in expensive unit beating cheap unit of the same role.

Why not the 5men when u got T4 and ur grens vet3 ?

Because you already have that ability in the doctrine if you need it.

or make them 280 and the option to get 2 LMG... or make the lmg better.

The only LMG that's better then what they got belongs to obers, so that isn't happening.

If you people want to play UKF or OKW so much, you'd have to switch to UKF or OKW, ost isn't going to magically change into one of them just because you flood the place with tears.

And all of them are much more expensive or have much worse support.

Are you high,
In which universe are vicker/50 cals(there is also aa ht and other stuff but you get the point) worse supports than mg42(222, 251 and else)????