Winter Preview: Lend Lease Problem

Keep in mind I'm a lvl 17 brit main and lvl 16 in OKW. I'm trying to be objective as possible here.

Currently the most popular opening for brits in the Winter Preview atm is Lend Lease Assault Section opening.

BO is as followed: (spawning Tommy), UC/VIckers, Assault Section, Assault Section, vickers/uc, T2/ medics, Assault Officer, AEC.

The problem: Thompson upgrade and Officer comes too early for a faction that has generally a decent mid game with the AEC dominating LV play.

My suggestion: Lock Thompson upgrade after T2 and Lock Assault officer after eithe AEC of Bofors unlock upgrade.

In practice this is an extremely oppresive build order vs okw. In the Past Soviet T1 was a must have vs OKW because of the Clown Car being generally unchallenged for the first couple minutes of the game. In the hands of a professional it is very clear how oppresive it really was to play against. The reworking of PanzerFussis relaly helped combat early LV play like that. Some weaknesses of the Soviet T1 was that it lacked the team weapon tools such as a proper AT gun and a Machinegun.

Lend Lease opening has none of those issues.

Generally OKW relies on its superior manpower to wrestle control of british cutoffs in the beginning of the game. Shown in my own testing and also Tightrope's videoes. Assault Sections can confortabily walk up to Volks Grenadiers and win. This ofc flips the dynamic on its head but Assault sections don't come at any additional cost for their firepower. In fact they are 280mp (the original cost of Sections) Brits MP values and income in the early game hasn't been adjusted at all even after sections got dropped to 270mp alpha price. Meaning opening with Assault sections equals bussiness as usual. Not only that, the UC is generally a vehicle that OKW has a hard time dealing with in the first place requiring the Panzer Fusis to be selected. Panzer Fusis lose to Assault sections hard. Panzer Fusis don't gain any RA until vet 3 and thus suffer a lot from rapid fire close range squads that can shred their lackluster starting RA. And what's worse? The brits actually has a decent MG at T1 and one of the best AT guns in the game.

It's not all doom and gloom ofc but it's very oppresive to fight against. In fact comes Tier two with the assault officer it becomes even more oppresive. Assault Officer comes earlier than Panzergrens Assault Officer loses 1-2 models on average charging on Volks. Assault Officer also has a version of on me that works differently from the Captain On me ability. The USF Captain on me usually forces the targeted friendly squad to sprint rapidly towards the captain. The Ass Officer on me doesn't seem to do that probably cause it'll pull in cover Sections out and no one would want to do that.

Without needing to buy Bolster or weapon racks for firepower upgrades (since Assault sections spawn 5 man and has Thompson upgrades) Brits now have the cheapest LV > into Medium route costing only

Brits fuel cost T2 30 fuel > AEC unlock 15 Fuel > AEC 60 fuel > T3 115 fuel > cromwell 110 fuel = 330 fuel total.

Okw fuel cost Truck 15> Mechanized 45 fuel > Luchs 60 fuel > Truck 15> T4 120> P4 140 = 395 fuel total

I'm not saying these numbers are definitive representation of the all balance of all time but it's worth taking a look at.

Again, not saying this is representative of balance in the winter patch in general but it is rather a case study into a very specifc matchup that I think will be quite one sided.

Assault sections are stronger than their current lend lease format because of timing and no requirements on bolster. It'll be very interesting to see where we end up with a unit that can hold its own vs other cqc squads in the brits roster that isn't limited to one like the assault officer.

There's also great synergy in this build with the buildable T1 medics that can not only heal Assault sections early to reduce their 1 RA bleed but also back cap some points. My thoughts on the medics can be found here https://www.coh2.org/topic/103593/winter-balance-1-2020-feedback-ukf/post/804404 but mostly they are powerful yet buggy.

I want to make brits great again but I doubt giving them an oppresive early game of CQC + long range LV and 11 minute cromwell timings is the way to go.

I agree with post and have raised similar points.
My suggestion would be different thou:

Assault Section:

Should become build-able like PF
Should have the Thompson upgrade require both weapon racks/bolster instead of t2 or one could simply change the weapon profile of this Thompson and instead of an an "Elite" weapon to get 5 better Smgs than stens.
Should have frag grenade replaced by incendiary and WP removed
Should have the building option removed (at least sandbags/trenches)

M5:
should be delayed either by tech or by moving to CP 3

Other:
Medic should be replaced by base medics

Officer:
Should be redesign to be similar to assault section and commandos but get a no tech incendiary grenade and the "Serve to Lead" ability a ability similar to ostheer artillery officer "diversion" by providing 1.1 armor per vet level.

An "upgrade" could be available at T3 making Captain and giving him 4 Enfield and 1 Vickers K.

Spawnable assault infantry has been very difficult for OKW in the past and though I havent play tested the winter patch, It isnt at all surprising to me the assault sections could be an issue.

What was the justification for removing bolster as a requirement for 5 men for them? Could always revert that change which may help a lot.

What was the justification for removing bolster as a requirement for 5 men for them? Could always revert that change which may help a lot.

They spawn with 5 man similar to ass gren and ass engi. They have default RA = 1 and weapons profile of grease gun, nothing outstanding about the performance itself.

An "upgrade" could be available at T3 making Captain and giving him 4 Enfield and 1 Vickers K.

It will be great if this is a separate unit, but it is not that necessary for such an unit in current roster.

Spawnable assault infantry has been very difficult for OKW in the past and though I havent play tested the winter patch, It isnt at all surprising to me the assault sections could be an issue.

What was the justification for removing bolster as a requirement for 5 men for them? Could always revert that change which may help a lot.

I think they wanted to give a bit more value to early game Brits and remove depdencancy on Bolster.

It's fine that they are doing that for AT sections because they are quite weak vs infantry and having the extra model helps a lot vs vehicles.

Assault sections is a completely different story. This is a unit that will out scale Sturm Pios and Ass Grens very quickly with the Thompson upgrade. It also has quite good vet: Ra at vet 1 too. Ass grens gets sprint cooldown decrease I think.

I think they might want to revert the change if they don't want Lend Lease to be very oppresive.

I think they wanted to give a bit more value to early game Brits and remove depdencancy on Bolster.

It's fine that they are doing that for AT sections because they are quite weak vs infantry and having the extra model helps a lot vs vehicles.

Assault sections is a completely different story. This is a unit that will out scale Sturm Pios and Ass Grens very quickly with the Thompson upgrade. It also has quite good vet: Ra at vet 1 too. Ass grens gets sprint cooldown decrease I think.

I think they might want to revert the change if they don't want Lend Lease to be very oppresive.

Ass grens also get a slight RA decrease with their vet 1 IIRC.

They spawn with 5 man similar to ass gren and ass engi. They have default RA = 1 and weapons profile of grease gun, nothing outsourcing about the performance itself.

Yeah but 4 man as section have the same dps output of 5 man ass grens (53 v 51), that is quite outstanding dont your think.

I actually think the offensive vet bonuses given to ass section's should be toned down a bit.
the accuracy bonus should be dropped to +30% from +40%.
The other squad with both section stens/m3's and elite thompsons are cav rifles, and they get a measly +25% acc. Also Ranges and Para who have elite thompsons also have +25% acc form vet. Otherwise it would be quite OP.
Ass sections for the same cost have +30 dps over ass grens for the exact same cost. Giving them equal bonus from vet is not the correct IMO.

They shouldn't be able to build cover. The weapon upgrade also comes too early, should be locked behind something else, weapon racks or bolster or AEC/Bofors etc. Other than that I didn't find them particularly strong in combat.

The real problem still stands though, they are limited to one (weak) doctrine. Would be much better if they could be included in a doctrine that has late-game options. Alternatively, Lend-Lease Regiment could get something like a P47 loiter (would fit the theme of the doctrine) to give it a bit of late-game power.

Right now Lend-Lease is only useful in 1v1 and even then you are gambling on winning early or being stuck without needed tools in late-game.

Yeah but 4 man as section have the same dps output of 5 man ass grens (53 v 51), that is quite outstanding dont your think.

Yeah, but 5 man ass grens have nade barrage that will severely wound a squads even if "missed" and just wipe it when hits and sprint to close in without getting a lot of damage, that is quite outstanding, don't you think?

The real problem still stands though, they are limited to one (weak) doctrine. Would be much better if they could be included in a doctrine that has late-game options

Again, what do you propose then? Because all other commanders are filled with unique abilities already and I don't see any room anywhere to include Assault Sections without having to delete something.

Again, what do you propose then? Because all other commanders are filled with unique abilities already and I don't see any room anywhere to include Assault Sections without having to delete something.

How about this, blunder m5 and m10 into 1 slot call: "lend lease armor", and add straffing support from vanguard in the empty slot.

Can you consider?

Another suggestion.

Take from viper's suggestion of making ass sections built-able. Merge ass sections with AT section into "specialized infantry", allow ass sections built in T1, AT sections built in T2. This new ability can be put in both LL regiment and special weapons regiment.

Again, what do you propose then? Because all other commanders are filled with unique abilities already and I don't see any room anywhere to include Assault Sections without having to delete something.

This is the best I could come up with:

- Give reworked HQ glider to Commando doctrine and remove it from Vanguard.
- Add Assault Sections to Vanguard.

Optional:
- Swap "Hold the Line!" from Special Weapons Regiment and Strafing Support from Vanguard.
- Give "Hold the Line!" something like a price reduction so it isn't completely useless.

I don't know if this is a terrible idea or not.

Otherwise you could just replace flamethrowers on Mobile Assault.

This is the best I could come up with:

- Give reworked HQ glider to Commando doctrine and remove it from Vanguard.
- Add Assault Sections to Vanguard.
- Swap "Hold the Line!" from Lend Lease and Strafing Support from Vanguard.
- Give "Hold the Line!" something like a price reduction so it isn't completely useless.

I don't know if this is a terrible idea or not.

Otherwise you could just replace flamethrowers or the meh cover bonus on Mobile Assault.

Lend lease does not have hold the line special weapon does.

Lend lease an early commander that is currently everperfomring according to OP these is little reason to buff its late game also.

Finally if some abilities need to go removing Croc from one of 3 commander it is available is better choice.

Yeah, but 5 man ass grens have nade barrage that will severely wound a squads even if "missed" and just wipe it when hits and sprint to close in without getting a lot of damage, that is quite outstanding, don't you think?

Well if your going to compare a munitions ability to a non free one i really don't know what to say to you.
Double standards much...

Double standards much...

That's literally all what you present, ignoring and disregarding advantages of units just so narrative can suit your point.

It doesn't matter what the abilities cost - they are there for you to use, if you aren't using them, you're playing the unit wrong, which obviously will lead to the conclusion that its "weaker" then unit with no abilities.

All of your balance problems so far are learn to play issues.

How about this, blunder m5 and m10 into 1 slot call: "lend lease armor", and add straffing support from vanguard in the empty slot.

Can you consider?

Not the strafing support vom Vanguard because it's supposed to be lend lease themed. Take USF P47 loiter instead to fit the theme.

Lend lease does not have hold the line special weapon does.

Brainfart, that's what I meant.

Finally if some abilities need to go removing Croc from one of 3 commander it is available is better choice.

This would be best actually, I would exclude Special Weapons.