Su76: Any chance for it to be looked out?

I think the SU76 has a efficiency problem.
Against OST you don't buy a 75 FU unit to counter a 222 or 251. Against OKW you might use it against a Luchs. However, the SU76 is still more expensive. Also the T70 can scare a Luchs away if necessary and brings very good AI to the table. Against a Puma it's not worth building it, because it can be killed too easily if it gets caught out of position, while it itself can't dive the Puma.

So what is left for the SU76 in it's primary role as AT unit? Osteind. Would eork alright, but just get a T34 instead. Against StuG it does not work that well. Against P4 it's too unreliable so you'd need another AT unit anyway. It's not worth delaying your own tank that heavily.

So the only role that is left is if you're massivlely behind on furl, your opponent get's a tank out on the field and you can't afford teching to T4. Then your only hope is to get the SU76 and hope that you can somehow kill the P4 to narrow thee gap

Su-76 can take out most vehicles when in number.

According to test someone did (do not remember currently) they could take out an Elephant (3 or 4 if I remember correctly)

Su-76 can take out most vehicles when in number.

According to test someone did (do not remember currently) they could take out an Elephant (3 or 4 if I remember correctly)

But it's not cost effective anymore.

So I just tested the Elefant statement with 4 SU76:
Yes, it is true. 4 SU76 can kill it. At least two of them die, they take quite a while to kill the Elefant and they have to drive to super close range to somewhat reliably pen. And I tested in a stand-off. Since SU67 is a casemate I also tested for frontal assaults only (although with 4 of the units next to each other there will be side armor shots depending on which SU76 the AI Elefant targets.

Still you invest 4x75 = 300 FU (and lose at least 150 vs Elefant 245) and 4x280 = 1120 MP (lose 560 vs Elefant 720). Side note POP: Su76 need 32 vs 22 of Elefant.

But this is nothing that would happen in a real game. You'd just waste 1-2 SU76 and that's it. You must frontally assault into PaKs because flanking with casemates is very hard. You're probably better off with 3 T34s and doing a real flank to be honest. So while theoretically possible, it's not a real point for the SU76.

Now can this argument be transferred to other units? I think it will work better against a Tiger due to lower armor, but still you need to assault frontally into support units and you always have to go all-in, as the chance to penetrate at long range is about 55% which is probably not enough to deter a Tiger reliably. Instead of 2 SU76 you could also just get a SU85 at this point in the game that at least is slightly more resistant to mis-positioning compared to a SU76.

The SU76 is probably not an inherently bad unit, but there is just no unit worth countering. The SU76 is too expensive for the early game units it could counter. On the other hand it comes relatively early so it rightfully should not be able to counter late game units reliably.

The AI barrage just does not make up for it. SOV have better options at next to every point in the game than an SU76.

You are still paying the muni now. Unless you meant it to be free.

Yes, sorry I meant free and on a global cooldown.

But it's not cost effective anymore.
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I personally would love to have SU-76 as OKW. Imo the units is cost effective there as simply better option for the Soviets.

The reason I mentioned the Elephant is simply because some people seem to think it can only deal with light vehicles when that is not the case when in numbers. Another advantage when in numbers is that if they are kept apart the can hit the read armor of units trying to dive.

I personally would love to have SU-76 as OKW. Imo the units is cost effective there as simply better option for the Soviets.

The reason I mentioned the Elephant is simply because some people seem to think it can only deal with light vehicles when that is not the case when in numbers. Another advantage when in numbers is that if they are kept apart the can hit the read armor of units trying to dive.

It would need a major rebalance though in terms of pen chance if you switch sides completely. After that I'd probably still take the Puma if I had the choice as OKW.

But I also don't think that the SU76 is a viable late game choice. 3 of them can dish out decent damage, but they need to be spaced optimally and as casemates they need a lot of support and micro to be able to deter heavy armor. They pen Panthers with slightly above 60% chance and Tiger with sligthly less than 55% chance at long ranges. And they need 9 pens to kill. The chance that your SU76 with their low health pool get chipped away one after the other during multiple fights or you lose one to a flank is high. You will only bleed more and probably don't do too much. Every faction will be better off with a real TD in the late game.

Su-76 can take out most vehicles when in number.

So can ZiS and it doesn't take fuel for it, which comes back to what Hannibal and me said, lack of efficiency compared to literally any other alternative for any other situation.

According to test someone did (do not remember currently) they could take out an Elephant (3 or 4 if I remember correctly)

Because tests like that are 1000% indicative of what's happening in actual games, right?

I personally would love to have SU-76 as OKW. Imo the units is cost effective there as simply better option for the Soviets.

And soviets would love to have Puma.
Its a pointless argument that doesn't make any sense.

The reason I mentioned the Elephant is simply because some people seem to think it can only deal with light vehicles when that is not the case when in numbers. Another advantage when in numbers is that if they are kept apart the can hit the read armor of units trying to dive.

As pointed out, its still incomparably higher cost in fuel, mp and pop and you still lose a crapload of resources in doing so.

But hell, I can assure you, enough PTRS penals can take down Brummbar frontally - it doesn't mean PTRS is great AT weapon.

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I see the crusaded continues.

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My main point is that the units performance is inline with the timing and cost. The unis is cost efficient. Soviet simply have better options.

My main point is that the units performance is inline with the timing and cost. The unis is cost efficient. Soviet simply have better options.

If there is always a better option, regardless of situation, that's a dictionary definition of lack of cost effectiveness, as there is always a better option.

If there is always a better option, regardless of situation, that's a dictionary definition of lack of cost effectiveness, as there is always a better option.

Vipper is right. The problem in this situation is, that compared to units of other factions the SU76 is not that bad for the price. Just inside the SOV unit composition it is completely redundant.

Now you could make it cheaper since a unit should also be balanced according to the faction environment. It could help, but if you don't hit a very narrow sweet spot it will lead to spam and cheese strategies which would contradict the intention of basically all patches of the previous years.

Since I did not suggest a solution to the problem yet:

I suggest what I suggested in a previous discussion about the SU76: It does not need a straight stat buff. Give it utility instead. Make the barrage cheaper. Or give it something else, even if it's the StuGs stun shot (maybe limited to 50 range).

Since I did not suggest a solution to the problem yet:

I suggest what I suggested in a previous discussion about the SU76: It does not need a straight stat buff. Give it utility instead. Make the barrage cheaper. Or give it something else, even if it's the StuGs stun shot (maybe limited to 50 range).

Muni reduction could work, it would give it something over ZiS at least.
Soviets used to be muni float faction, however over last 4 years it became one of the most muni heavy ones, literally just moving doesn't cost muni and even there are exceptions, allowing it to not be as demanding on barrage could be a way to revitalize the unit.

As you've said, stat buffs aren't really needed, its just about the costs.

Can we just make the barrage recharge time the same as the Zis-3 gun already.

That in itself would make this unit more practical.


(I know it gets a vet bonus at like vet 3 to reduce the recharge; even after that it is still much slower)

I think the SU76 has a efficiency problem.
Against OST you don't buy a 75 FU unit to counter a 222 or 251. Against OKW you might use it against a Luchs. However, the SU76 is still more expensive. Also the T70 can scare a Luchs away if necessary and brings very good AI to the table. Against a Puma it's not worth building it, because it can be killed too easily if it gets caught out of position, while it itself can't dive the Puma.

So what is left for the SU76 in it's primary role as AT unit? Osteind. Would eork alright, but just get a T34 instead. Against StuG it does not work that well. Against P4 it's too unreliable so you'd need another AT unit anyway. It's not worth delaying your own tank that heavily.

So the only role that is left is if you're massivlely behind on furl, your opponent get's a tank out on the field and you can't afford teching to T4. Then your only hope is to get the SU76 and hope that you can somehow kill the P4 to narrow thee gap

Due to crappy mobility and pathfinding, you don't want it even against an Ostwind, if the map is open and narrow like say a Crossing in the Woods. But you need at least AT sources to feel safe and by that point why not just get a double AT gun. Cause if the opponent just goes 2 Ostwind he can do much more by been mobile.

I'll argue that it does average against the Stug due to the extra 10 range and the Stug been turretless as well. But no one gets an Su76 to counter Stugs. And no one gets a Stug to counter Su76s.

Remove barrage from vet0. Give it back as zis barrage at vet1 and let it shoot additional shell during the barrage at vet3.

Remove barrage from vet0. Give it back as zis barrage at vet1 and let it shoot additional shell during the barrage at vet3.

That's a straight nerf; extra shells are basically worthless unless you're firing at a building or something.

The only adjustment the barrage needs is to have the same ability recharge time as the Zis-3.

Remove barrage from vet0. Give it back as zis barrage at vet1 and let it shoot additional shell during the barrage at vet3.

Point of the thread to make the unit more appealing, not less.

I'd start with giving it 480hp, so it doesn't roll over and die when it gets fausted.

Maybe can rework barrage ability be a switch ability,normal is move TD，active ability be a artillery like USF light howitzer