Swapping the P4 with the werfer

Think about it.

The reason t4 for why ost is so punishing in 1v1 is simply because t4 units are highly specialized , at their timing highly easy to be taken out, are very expensive and takes a lot of pop cap. Simply rushing to T4 or even skipping T3 then into T4 doesn't pay off very well, because of their specialization and cost (not to mention pop) getting anything after rushing T4/skipping seems pointless cus there is nothing to it.
Replacing the P4 with the werfer (and also some cost and timing changes) does 2 things,
1. Gives a safety net unit in T4(the P4)
2. Makes T3 a bit more coherent cheap(ish) units who are easy to take out by their counters but are good at their jobs(wefer great for wiping weapons crew dies in 1 shot, stug great at killing tanks but worthless vs inf, Ostwind murders inf can't really do anything to meds).
(bonus)3. Also this adds an element of risk v reward to T3 and T4. new T3 units are strong and cost effective but can be hard countered with the catch they are easy to replace, T4 units remain the same but with now the P4 there is some thing you can do build while still having easy options for Brum/Panthers.

This is similar to the T3 and T4 design of coh1. Cheap highly cost effective specialized units at t3 who can be hard countered. T4 works horse units with more powerful specialized units who are not as week to the things that counter them.

Also add somrthing like an Ober Lieutenant squad with force retreat/flare/repair or construction supervision or something.

No

[nevermind]

No

Could you elaborate why??

No - combined arms vs T3 is what COH2 is ideally about.

I don't see how this would work without T3 being made much cheaper - otherwise OST would get wrecked by mediums in the mid game. Even then this would force OST to go Tier 4 every game to be competitive - which might or might not be a good thing if Tier 4 isn't really made more viable in the upcoming patch. Forcing players to go Tier 4 JUST to get P4 would be pretty crap.

Edit - On the bright side this would mean that the announcer's line about rocket artillery being available after BP2 would finally be right again

Instead of just trowing away an idea consider it first.

Instead of just trowing away an idea consider it first.

Relic did. This is how OST's tech structure was originally organised. It's why unlocking T3 results in the voice line "medium armour and rocket artillery is now available."

You could restructure OST's tech to work like this, but it would be more than simply swapping the units. You'd need to rework all the teching costs so T4 comes out earlier. You'd then have to completely rebalance T3 around its own earlier timing. That'd mean reverting the Ostwind to its previous state and probably toning down the StuG too.

It'd be a major undertaking in fixing what isn't really broken.

Relic did. This is how OST's tech structure was originally organised. It's why unlocking T3 results in the voice line "medium armour and rocket artillery is now available."

You could restructure OST's tech to work like this, but it would be more than simply swapping the units. You'd need to rework all the teching costs so T4 comes out earlier. You'd then have to completely rebalance T3 around its own earlier timing. That'd mean reverting the Ostwind to its previous state and probably toning down the StuG too.

It'd be a major undertaking in fixing what isn't really broken.

Why would T3 come earlier, T4 would come earlier(technically). But going from T3 then to a T4 would be dangerous.
Simply put place T3 have no workhorse but have stug + pstwind with werfer for support, or wait a little bit for P4 but don't have cheap follow ups.
Ost T3 would kinda work like Sov T4 instead weaker/OKW mechanized but stronger.
Ost T4 would now be like the schwere but have slightly weaker units and siege tool rather than a TD - the ober's(but pg's kinda fill that hole).

as T3 & T4 is now,
T3: 90f + 15f
T4: 90f + 25f + 25f
we could make it,
T3: 50f + 55f
T4: 50f + 25f + 40f

we could also make the Panther and Brum cost more like 15 fuel each. So Panther would be 200f and Brum would be 170f.
So A panzer 4 rush would go up by 10 fuel and Panther/Brum rush would be come earlier by 15 fuel(maybe horribly wrong with my math here).

I don't think it could be completely out of the question for Ostheer to get the OKW P4 in Tier 4 (Same as the one in Strategic Reserves). Would be nice to have a semi-versatile unit in Tier 4 but the standard P4 should stay in Tier 3 as it is right now. Maybe the werfer could be a Tier 3 unit but I could see it becoming a massive problem within team games as a whole. You would have to replace the P4 in the commander with something, maybe armored skirts that act like the bulldozer for USF. That way you could get a stronger P4 in Tier 3 while still getting the OKW P4 in Tier 4.

Imo if someone swaps units there is a better solution:
Stug E at T3
Ostwind T4
Brumbar doctrinal redesigned closer to KV-2.

Also could the Strat Reserve Doc's P4 be made by just Teching T4/placing. That would help a bit.

Also could the Strat Reserve Doc's P4 be made by just Teching T4/placing. That would help a bit.

Agreed, haven't really seen anyone swallow the higher cost of T4 instead of just going T3 to get P4 J's in the live version. BP3 is now 10 fuel more expensive, so it would become a 35 fuel delay instead of 50 fuel like currently, which sounds more reasonable. *It would only save manpower compared to live version, I suck at math.

Still, the trade-off has become even less enticing with the tech change, considering you can get T4 quite cheaply after T3 now. Saving some manpower would help.

What would this solve, though?

Right now T3 is "fine" and T4 is "bad" (too situational). Swapping the P4 for the P.Werfer makes T3 worse, which isn't needed, and makes the P4 come out far too late in a normal build order.

The only way I could see this working is if the StuG-G was buffed a lot with zero price increase, as it would need to take over all of the mobile AT roles that the P4 provided (such as countering LVs), but it needs to do so as a case-mate TD.

Well, no. Many problems will happen.

First you mimic OKW tech, thats bad, OKW has a modular tech, OST has a linear one. Second, stop cloning factions features.

Then if you are to keep P4 powerspike and overall usefullness you should decrease its FU cost after putting it in T4, what makes it harder to rush and easier to spam (this will hurt all factions) but the other issue is that TDs will become even more dominant because axis mediums will have less time before heavy TDs arrive.

IF you are not to keep P4 power level you are straight nerfing it in the worst possible way. OST rely on P4 to hold some of the allied early infantry power. A Pwerfer is both, frustrating to play against and not as effective at wiping than other rocket arty like katys or wstukas.

Finally the whole prupose of this radical change is to give T4 a reward? I find exactly the opposite coming from this idea.

This entire discussion is pointless.

The Panzer IV is the workhorse of the Ostheer and needs to be out ASAP under normal circumstances. Pushing back its timing to T4 would have catastrophic consequences for Ostheer in 1v1.

Instead of just trowing away an idea consider it first.

Lets not consider stupid ideas, shall we?

Pushing back its timing to T4 would have catastrophic consequences for Ostheer in 1v1.

Probably would fuck them over in any game mode tbh. I don't see any reason for this change

If move panzerIV to T4,shoule give some buff like increase HP because they will face TDs？