Tank Destroyer Poll

If you need to combine that many factors, in addition to luck (them not seeing/hearing you), as well as relying on the opponent not micro'ing properly, to just get a chance at destroying an M36 with a P4, then I'd consider that the P4 is made irrelevant by the M36.

When comparing units, they need to either be on equal ground, or have their ground 'equalized' by compensating price with skill.

And the thinh is, even IF you manage to get a p4 into range of a Jackson unnoticed, your p4 is STILL at a disadvantage. The Jackson is faster, more accurate and guaranteed to pen while the p4 isn't even guaranteed to hit or pen the Jackson. Chasing a Jackson actually puts the p4 at a worse handicap as well due to the usf accuracy on the move bonus. AND assuming you don't kill it and retreat to lick your wounds the Jackson will be repaired sooner because it has usf crews to pop out and start asap.

There isn't single advantage the Jackson does not have in regards to tank combat and certainly not a weakness in sight.

"powerful Focused Sight ability at Vet 0"
Even stronger with vet1

Jackson comes one minute after a Sherman and can fight off any tank except a dedicated heavy tank destroyer head on. And it can beat that too if it gets 10 degrees to its left or right.

My proposal would be to Add the M10 to the USF tech tree to fight medium spam
Nerf the Jackson’s range to 50, and give it a toggle ability to increase its range at the cost of movement speed, sort of like the SU85, maybe call it take aim?

This would allow the Jackson to focus on being a heavy killer as it won’t have to fight medium spam, as the M10 could fill that void
The toggle would allow the Jackson to remain mobile while reducing its ability kite at max range, which is the OP thing about it, and the toggle goes with the USF theme of versatility

Jackson comes one minute after a Sherman and can fight off any tank except a dedicated heavy tank destroyer head on. And it can beat that too if it gets 10 degrees to its left or right.

My proposal would be to Add the M10 to the USF tech tree to fight medium spam
Nerf the Jackson’s range to 50, and give it a toggle ability to increase its range at the cost of movement speed, sort of like the SU85, maybe call it take aim?

This would allow the Jackson to focus on being a heavy killer as it won’t have to fight medium spam, as the M10 could fill that void
The toggle would allow the Jackson to remain mobile while reducing its ability kite at max range, which is the OP thing about it, and the toggle goes with the USF theme of versatility

Edit: oops didn’t mean to do this

I agree with most posters here that the SU85 is in a right spot and that the Jackson is too good. The Firefly.. I honestly don't use the unit enough to have a proper opinion.

Because it's not about making the Jackson been weaker towards mediums or whatever but giving it a clear weakness compared to the whole roster of TDs. ...

Imo it is about both. Having to pay extra for PzIV armor when it is completely nullified by M36 firing from 60 with chance to damage (hit and penetrate) close 100% makes little sense.

Apart from any weakness it need to have it's performance lowered at max range. If I remember correctly practically this units can kill a meduim faster than Ele of JT can at range 60.

Only at option for USF is jackson. So nerfing jackson means killing whole USF. Please be honest about USF. All you want is no late game USF. Just confess it.

Jacksons HAD a weakness, then they buffed their HP because they were way too fragile and there tends to be damage saturation when you’re diving enemy heavies and heavy TDs because your faction doesn’t have an Elephant, which threw their original glass cannon design out the window and took us to the current state.

My take is the same as before: Give them pernament HVAP shells, meaning lower rate of fire and higher pen. Better at countering heavies and worse at countering mediums. Then make the USF M1 a copy paste of the UKF 6pdr so that it’s worse vs heavies but easier to use vs mediums.

Honestly the best idea i have seen inside the dumbsterfires that are Allied TD forums. Make M36 less abusive against P4 but allow USF to survive against heavy Axis armour while giving USF reliable Anti-medium weapons that isnt the jackson.

Only at option for USF is jackson. So nerfing jackson means killing whole USF. Please be honest about USF. All you want is no late game USF. Just confess it.

That doesn't seem to be the case; there's been a bunch of requests and suggestions that give USF an alternative "medium TD".

Honestly the best idea i have seen inside the dumbsterfires that are Allied TD forums. Make M36 less abusive against P4 but allow USF to survive against heavy Axis armour while giving USF reliable Anti-medium weapons that isnt the jackson.

This is a pretty good 'summary' of the problem; the M36 needs to not be the "anti-everything" solution, and instead specialize as the "anti-heavy" TD, with something else filling the roll of "anti-medium".

One idea I've been thinking of lately is swapping the M8A1 "Scott" with the M10 in the Armor Company, and then drastically increasing the price on the M36 (ex. 460mp/165f). This could fix the "overlap" between the Scott and Pak-Howie (and lower their ubiquity, at least a bit), give USF an Intermediate AT source similar to a StuG-G, and would make M36 spam less viable.

That's my suggestion.

My proposal would be to Add the M10 to the USF tech tree to fight medium spam
Nerf the Jackson’s range to 50, and give it a toggle ability to increase its range at the cost of movement speed, sort of like the SU85, maybe call it take aim?

This would allow the Jackson to focus on being a heavy killer as it won’t have to fight medium spam, as the M10 could fill that void
The toggle would allow the Jackson to remain mobile while reducing its ability kite at max range, which is the OP thing about it, and the toggle goes with the USF theme of versatility

This could also be an interesting implementation of a similar idea.

Because it's not about making the Jackson been weaker towards mediums or whatever but giving it a clear weakness compared to the whole roster of TDs. Heavy meta been a problem is not the only issue with Jackson. The mod team already acknowledge that the Jackson was OP but just gave it a +5fuel increase as a token nerf which accomplish nothing.
USF is overperforming on 1v1 but touching the Jackson is scary for those in the mod team who plays teamgames as we know that Jackson holds the faction on those modes. It's the same as applying buffs to OH because on 1v1 they are a on the weaker side but they are doing "fine" on teamgames.

Su76, Stug, JPIV, Su85, FF have clear weakness. Be it casemate, mobility, low penetration, HP, damage, RoF, turret rotation. The PV here been the oddball been a tank hunter limited by 50 range and excessive cost.

Look, the Jackson was BAD in the past, but it got plenty of buffs through different patch cycles. MAYBE it's time to rollback some of them.

Show Spoiler

M36 being buffed? it also went from 240 damage to 160, sight bonus removed, popcap +2 and +20 fuel.
Survivability has been buffed at cost of damage spike. Do you really consider Mr.Smith who did the job an USF fanboy?

Don't you remember the shit storm we had every time a wheraboo forum's fighter had a bad RNG luck vs Jackson back in the days? The same shit storm we have today when the same wheraboo forum's fighters have a bad RNG luck vs the same Jackson.

Your vision of the M36 is biaised when you compare it to the Su-85, where is the Katy, where are the many mines you spend you munition on, where is the super cheap T34, the -I don't need ammo to pen you- zig gun, where are the half of doctrines with the -Out of jail card- Button to save your Su-85's ass from flanking etc... Where is the equivalence of the Su-76 when you don't have 145 fuel in bank for the M36?

Seriously, you can't be serious comparing both units in a vacuum. Not you please, leave it for Vipper and his kind. M36 weakness is everywhere else as USF late game is still dependent on crutch units as per original design.
I'm all for changing it, reducing M36 potential and giving USF late game more balance but the last +5 fuel change the balance team made let me think there is little to be done or Relic is vetoing any proposed solution.

Usf is the only faction with non doctrinal tank traps so its not true that usf have only jackson for late game.

M36 weakness is everywhere else as USF late game is still dependent on crutch units as per original design.

Yea, that's why there's been a bunch of suggestions to change this; such as making the M10 non-doc.

Usf is the only faction with non doctrinal tank traps so its not true that usf have only jackson for late game.

Heavy tanks and panthers roll over them like they were grass, they don't work above P4.

Argument still stands.

Heavy tanks and panthers roll over them like they were grass, they don't work above P4.

Tank traps can't be crushed, you must be thinking of CoH1.

Tank traps can't be crushed, you must be thinking of CoH1.

Probably. Never really had much use of them in CoH2 outside of makeshift sandbag and they don't really stop anything, just delay it a bit.

Only at option for USF is jackson. So nerfing jackson means killing whole USF. Please be honest about USF. All you want is no late game USF. Just confess it.

Exactly. Axis fans just want easy game. When they could crush the USF from panthers and tigers, trample on the enemy like an avalanche. But Jackson does not allow this, although it has very weak armor. They also want to remove accuracy in movement, although this is a feature of all USF tanks. Bad armor, Poor health, but good accuracy in movement.
 
There is not even a guarantee that in the battle Jackson vs Panzer 4, the M36 will win.

Exactly. Axis fans just want easy game. When they could crush the USF from panthers and tigers, trample on the enemy like an avalanche. But Jackson does not allow this, although it has very weak armor. They also want to remove accuracy in movement, although this is a feature of all USF tanks. Bad armor, Poor health, but good accuracy in movement.
 
There is not even a guarantee that in the battle Jackson vs Panzer 4, the M36 will win.

I love how you are saying axis fan boys want it easy then go on to say the unit with more range, guaranteed to pen, better on the move and actually having a chance to bounce incoming fire isn't guaranteed to win. RNG is RNG of course but it's not like the Jackson doesn't have every stat in its favour. 99.99999% isn't a guarantee but it's close enough...

Exactly. Axis fans just want easy game. When they could crush the USF from panthers and tigers, trample on the enemy like an avalanche. But Jackson does not allow this, although it has very weak armor. They also want to remove accuracy in movement, although this is a feature of all USF tanks. Bad armor, Poor health, but good accuracy in movement.
 
There is not even a guarantee that in the battle Jackson vs Panzer 4, the M36 will win.

While USF get one unit to counter easy all axis things on Wheels/tracks...

and not using a combination of there tool.(like in Coh1)

meanwhile axis:

If you need to combine that many factors, in addition to luck (them not seeing/hearing you), as well as relying on the opponent not micro'ing properly, to just get a chance at destroying an M36 with a P4, then I'd consider that the P4 is made irrelevant by the M36.

When comparing units, they need to either be on equal ground, or have their ground 'equalized' by compensating price with skill.

Jackson comes one minute after a Sherman and can fight off any tank except a dedicated heavy tank destroyer head on. And it can beat that too if it gets 10 degrees to its left or right.

My proposal would be to Add the M10 to the USF tech tree to fight medium spam
Nerf the Jackson’s range to 50, and give it a toggle ability to increase its range at the cost of movement speed, sort of like the SU85, maybe call it take aim?

First of all, if usf goes for a jackson first to counter mediums usf will lose. Yes, usf can counter the p4 but axis will win the infantry fights with the help of its medium, considering equal skill and infantry army.

I think adding the m10 to the usf tech tree is a terrible idea. Back in the day when armor comp was meta in 1v1, ostheers t3 was utterly useless and is forced into panthers/tiger. This will happen again if the m10 will be a standart usf unit. Atleast with the more expensive jackson you can create 2v1 scenarios with your axis tanks. The m10 on the other hand is too cheap and hard counters every single tank in a whole tier while beeing cheaper, more mobile than all of them...

I do like the toggle "take aim" ability idea, sounds like a great way to nerf the jackson without taking away its strenght and main role as a heavy tank counter.

And the thinh is, even IF you manage to get a p4 into range of a Jackson unnoticed, your p4 is STILL at a disadvantage. The Jackson is faster, more accurate and guaranteed to pen while the p4 isn't even guaranteed to hit or pen the Jackson. Chasing a Jackson actually puts the p4 at a worse handicap as well due to the usf accuracy on the move bonus. AND assuming you don't kill it and retreat to lick your wounds the Jackson will be repaired sooner because it has usf crews to pop out and start asap.

There isn't single advantage the Jackson does not have in regards to tank combat and certainly not a weakness in sight.

How about making the M36 Jackson like it used to be?
Less health (480), 12 pop, less armor, 125 fuel

That way, the Panzer 4 can destroy it reliably when at range.
Currently, Jackson was buffed to 600 health, improved armor. I never understood why