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russian armor

StuG III G

1 Feb 2020, 10:48 AM
#21
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2020, 00:05 AMLago


Short answer?

For an equivalent fuel expenditure:
Lighter TDs win against medium armour and lose against heavy armour.
Heavier TDs win against medium armour more slowly and win against heavy armour.

Why would you risk going for a medium TD build when the opponent can go for a heavy tank and render them ineffective?

An example of a light TD done well is the Puma. It's indisputably a light TD: it specialises against vehicles worth 100 FU and less, and you'd never think of the Puma when deciding what to build against an IS-2.

But an IS-2's worth of Pumas does beat an IS-2.

How?
  • It's fast enough to close in on the IS-2.
  • Its smoke canisters allow it to survive fairly well against an IS-2.
  • It has a powerful veterancy ability it can use to stun single targets.
  • It has a close-range penetration spike that allows a group to out-DPS an IS-2 at point blank range.


If light TDs are to be truly viable in the era of heavy tanks, they all need what the Puma's got: utility abilities that are good at controlling a single target, and more importantly close range penetration spikes.

They shouldn't be better than their heavier counterparts, but they should win in numbers.

Otherwise why risk building a tank destroyer that loses to a generalist?


But a unit as fragile as a su76 needing to close in to heavy tanks is just trowing it away. Its got no turret low health. The stug wont fare better. Let alone them flanking without a turret is pretty hard to pull of.

The twp can control a heavy somewhat. Extra sight with tracking can help secure a kill even on a heavy. Imo they already have something that can be off effect vs heavies.
1 Feb 2020, 11:27 AM
#22
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

SU76 just needs switchable shells and 40 range HE shells with the same stats as the Stug III E.
1 Feb 2020, 11:30 AM
#23
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

SU76 just needs switchable shells and 40 range HE shells with the same stats as the Stug III E.

That would simply make it OP. It would fill both AI and AT role adequately even with 40 range.
1 Feb 2020, 11:35 AM
#24
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2020, 11:30 AMVipper

That would simply make it OP. It would fill both AI and AT role adequately even with 40 range.


That’s literally the Soviet design: Generalist units that can fit dual roles. If that’s op its mobility could be toned down.
1 Feb 2020, 11:36 AM
#25
avatar of RavenClaw

Posts: 13

In my opinion the StuG Needs a buff on his frontal armor. range etc. are fine. It´s a supporter, not a tank...
1 Feb 2020, 11:42 AM
#26
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



That’s literally the Soviet design: Generalist units that can fit dual roles. If that’s op its mobility could be toned down.

And that is current implementation.

Its AI does not need become "always on" since these "generalist" soviet units are supposed to fill the role worse than "specialized" units. Having 10 less range than Stug -E would make it OP by comparison since it feel the role of both Stug E and Stug G.
1 Feb 2020, 11:45 AM
#27
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2020, 11:42 AMVipper

And that is current implementation.

Its AI does not need become "always on" since these "generalist" soviet units are supposed to fill the role worse than "specialized" units. Having 10 less range than Stug -E would make it OP by comparison since it feel the role of both Stug E and Stug G.


Except it would be less potent than the G, less armoured and lower AT capabilities, while it would also be less Armoured than the E with lower range and lower mobility.

It really wouldn’t be OP and again if it ends up being OP a nerf to vet and mobility would bring it in line.
1 Feb 2020, 11:48 AM
#28
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



Except it would be less potent than the G, less armoured and lower AT capabilities, while it would also be less Armoured than the E with lower range and lower mobility.

It really wouldn’t be OP and again if it ends up being OP a nerf to vet and mobility would bring it in line.

I would MOD it for you if want to test it but I busy at the moment...Other than that you are entitled to your opinion.
2 Feb 2020, 01:28 AM
#29
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

Stug G performance is fine, the TWP ability is complete dogshit tho: it halves damage, interrupts & resets the reload cycle and has a long activation time. You can sacrifice a whole extra shot if you use it late in the reload cycle.

They should let it activate like the Stug E or pak instead.
2 Feb 2020, 03:40 AM
#30
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Make TWP scale with vet and it'll probably be fine. It's a fine unit for when it hits but heavy meta leaves it lacking in the late game. Granted it's not supposed to be a heavy counter but I think with vet it should certainly be a solid helper.
2 Feb 2020, 04:02 AM
#31
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 785

I feel like if TWP at least did full damage, it might be more worth it. Otherwise you're sacrificing damage for the possibility of inflicting more damage later, provided you can even pull it off.
2 Feb 2020, 15:44 PM
#32
avatar of blancat

Posts: 810

cheap spammable TD unit

stug is fine
2 Feb 2020, 15:53 PM
#33
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

1vs1 it is good, on all other game modes it gets worse and worse. Up to 3vs3 it gets impossible to play without dive-suicide because of the massive Firefly/Jackson spams and everything outranges.

It would need a non-doc stationary 62,5 range ability, so it could work at long-range AT in game modes PaK40 gets obsolete because of Arty. So it works like MaderIII in CoH1.
2 Feb 2020, 20:07 PM
#34
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 785

1vs1 it is good, on all other game modes it gets worse and worse. Up to 3vs3 it gets impossible to play without dive-suicide because of the massive Firefly/Jackson spams and everything outranges.

It would need a non-doc stationary 62,5 range ability, so it could work at long-range AT in game modes PaK40 gets obsolete because of Arty. So it works like MaderIII in CoH1.


I don't think anyone is going to give a 280mp 90fuel TD with full 160 damage shots the best range outside of heavy TDs, especially when the requirement is just being stationary, something TDs generally should be most of the time anyways.
3 Feb 2020, 03:26 AM
#35
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
cheap spammable TD unit

stug is fine


But apparently EZ8 isn't, according to you? The EZ8 is a Ost/OKW p4 killer and is priced very competitively to basically hardcounter p4. It's not gonna have great anti-inf. What did u expect? To fight a panther 1v1? The Stug is mostly fine for what it does. So is the EZ8.
3 Feb 2020, 06:45 AM
#36
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794

Stug is 'fine' in 2v2.

Mostly crap in bigger modes. It is supposed to counter med tanks, but big modes, a bunch of stug will get overwhelmed by bunch of t34 or shermans.

It is the twp that is clearly shite and unfair. Pretty crappy ability for a vet level. Hence the feelings allies scale better or having sweet bonus outside their buffed states

Change that, and its fair.
3 Feb 2020, 09:40 AM
#37
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392



I don't think anyone is going to give a 280mp 90fuel TD with full 160 damage shots the best range outside of heavy TDs, especially when the requirement is just being stationary, something TDs generally should be most of the time anyways.


Maybe giving it an upgrade for 30 fuel and 100mp to make it a Jagdpanzer4 clone OR give it 140 damage instead of 160, only to close the missing gap of non-doc long-range. Don't forget it would be immobile in that mode, not able to hunt, only force Allii to use their brain with their tank-hunters.
3 Feb 2020, 10:09 AM
#38
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

StuGG is fine, people need to stop trying to fundamentally change units they don’t feel like using.
3 Feb 2020, 10:22 AM
#39
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3



Maybe giving it an upgrade for 30 fuel and 100mp to make it a Jagdpanzer4 clone


That would be terrible. :foreveralone:


OR give it 140 damage instead of 160, only to close the missing gap of non-doc long-range. Don't forget it would be immobile in that mode, not able to hunt, only force Allii to use their brain with their tank-hunters.


This actually sounds like a good idea for a vet 1 ability instead of the "HEAT shell" meme it has now. To sum it up:

- Stug can set itself up for longer range
- Activation time of a few seconds
- Provides a 20-25% bonus to range
- Stug G an only rotate
- Damage reduced from 160 to 140 (description: "blah lower velocity rounds blah")

Might just be a way to make the Stug more useful in team games (read: provide some alternative to pure Panther spam) without affecting 1v1 too much.
3 Feb 2020, 10:37 AM
#40
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243

Give Stug the same abitlys like the USF AT gun M1: much better penetration and some range for some muni for a limit time.

or give them the HEAT shots from OKW commander (than this can happen:

https://youtu.be/8M9gDjqNfEk?t=203 )
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