Panzerfüssiliers balance

Yet they perform better than g43 stromtroopers.

Stormtroopers were never meant to have nor balanced with G43.
They got the upgrade exclusively because ost community REEEEE'd loud enough, people responsible for balance back then said the upgrade will be irrelevant, but ost community didn't cared, so relic implemented G43 for them and once ost community found out they don't perform as well as with their intended weapons, they collectively made surprised pikachu face.

Stormtroopers were never meant to have nor balanced with G43.
They got the upgrade exclusively because ost community REEEEE'd loud enough, people responsible for balance back then said the upgrade will be irrelevant, but ost community didn't cared, so relic implemented G43 for them and once ost community found out they don't perform as well as with their intended weapons, they collectively made surprised pikachu face.

Well G43 Stormtroopers are very very good, so not sure what Zero is smoking again.

Partial conclusion so far:

PF are mainline "alternatives" meant to supplement VG not replace them.

Penal are also mainline "alternatives" that completely replace conscripts.

Does that consequently mean that Penal design is bad as I have pointed out for year?

Does not also mean that Penal design (and Soviet) would improve also if they started weaker (with mosin) and where offered weapons upgrades (SVT) similar to G43 PF?

Does it also mean that PF would be better designed if PF where given 6 G43s (adjusting DPS) so that their DPS drop off was more linear?

I disagree with your assertion about penals being a "replacement" for conscripts. The reason that conscripts are not typically built initially with penals is because penal cost is attached to tier 1 and that cost means you just cant field penals and conscripts simultaneously.

But you also dont usually see penals being rebuilt in the mid game and late game for a reason. You just replace them with conscripts instead. Because late game conscripts are more durable, cheaper to reinforce and have more utility, and the firepower gap is negligible if used with 7 man and in cover.



I dont disagree that penals are poorly implemented, but I disagree with the reasons why.

And btw what I want is the reduction of the snare range and not overall Panzerfüssilier nerfs. Not sure why this thread was opened in the first place.

Just because you don’t want it doesn’t mean it shouldn’t happen

Also your opinion isn’t the only one that matters

...

But you also dont usually see penals being rebuilt in the mid game and late game for a reason.
You just replace them with conscripts instead...

According to stat from the latest tournament Penal where being rebuilt at the same ratio.

"Before or after T3
Cons: 123 before, 12 after
Penals: 41 before, 4 after"

As you can see the number of Penal and conscript being built is identical at about 10%.

My main point here is that Penal are poorly implement the reason why is open to interpretation.

I'm pretty sure that one big reason for PF are more often used is, that they are in at least one very strong commander with lots of useful abilities (like Tiger), compared to the alternatives.
Also the survivability of a 6 men squad in lategame is a big advantage, where arti is omnipresent.

Can all the people debating about semantics and throwing in mostly random Con/Penal comparisons now please COMPLETELY cut it and go back to the actual thread topic.

And since this thread has not had too much substance so far: please at least try tp back up your claims with some data or at least a well thought out argumenz instead of 'nO TheY guD' and 'No ThEy bAd'

Can all the people debating about semantics and throwing in mostly random Con/Penal comparisons now please COMPLETELY cut it and go back to the actual thread topic.

And since this thread has not had too much substance so far: please at least try tp back up your claims with some data or at least a well thought out argumenz instead of 'nO TheY guD' and 'No ThEy bAd'

PF take up a commander slot and contrary to the majority of other doctrinal units they block the production pipe.


PF cost 270 Manpower to built and when built are less cost efficient than the majority of other mainline infatry of their time frame like conscripts/Riflemen/Grenadier/VG.


Show Spoiler

Once one has invested at least 270/40 one can upgrade PF with 2 shreck for 100 mu. The unit is not has proven to be rather weak and not more cost efficient than bazooka RE or Piat Ro.E.

They can also upgrade for with 3 g43 while they need to reinforce bringing their total cost to 295/80.

Now if one compares their combat stat to that of Penal (the closest equivalent) one would see that they are not that mach better than penal although they become available later and cost 80 munition more. (They can actually lose long range in cover vs Penal)

According to their design they are supposed to start weaker and become better in mid game.
On the other hand if one compares them in vet 0 and vet 3 with Penal one will see that Penal actually get better combat stats.

So the only thing left is their "utility" which compared to VGs the both get snares both get grenades and PF have vet 1 flares while VG get sandbags.

Now I do not see how that justifies the 80 cost on their G43s or why they have to build-able and not call in.

For me that translates to following:
Either Penal or PF are badly designed
Either Penal need to also start weaker and have weapon upgrade or Pf need to start stronger
Either Penal are OP or PF are UP since G43 PF take up a commander slot, come later, cost more and do not scale better
Shreck PF are not cost efficient

In sort:
PF need no nerfs, especially losing a g43 as suggested. They could actually get some buff to their K98 and some nerf to their G43 and lowering the price of the upgrade.(or a redesign becoming cheaper as supplement to support VG while bringing utility)

Penals are a mess and need to be looked at.

As much as I hate the move-acc G43s as a concept, I really have to agree; Panzerfusiliers are pretty much fine as is. Definitely not OP, though I find them really annoying when they have double shreks deleting vehicles.

Panzerfus are fine. You always see them in 2 v 2 and up thanks to grand offensive commander.

PF take up a commander slot and contrary to the majority of other doctrinal units they block the production pipe.


PF cost 270 Manpower to built and when built are less cost efficient than the majority of other mainline infatry of their time frame like conscripts/Riflemen/Grenadier/VG.


Show Spoiler

Once one has invested at least 270/40 one can upgrade PF with 2 shreck for 100 mu. The unit is not has proven to be rather weak and not more cost efficient than bazooka RE or Piat Ro.E.

They can also upgrade for with 3 g43 while they need to reinforce bringing their total cost to 295/80.

Now if one compares their combat stat to that of Penal (the closest equivalent) one would see that they are not that mach better than penal although they become available later and cost 80 munition more. (They can actually lose long range in cover vs Penal)

According to their design they are supposed to start weaker and become better in mid game.
On the other hand if one compares them in vet 0 and vet 3 with Penal one will see that Penal actually get better combat stats.

So the only thing left is their "utility" which compared to VGs the both get snares both get grenades and PF have vet 1 flares while VG get sandbags.

Now I do not see how that justifies the 80 cost on their G43s or why they have to build-able and not call in.

For me that translates to following:
Either Penal or PF are badly designed
Either Penal need to also start weaker and have weapon upgrade or Pf need to start stronger
Either Penal are OP or PF are UP since G43 PF take up a commander slot, come later, cost more and do not scale better
Shreck PF are not cost efficient

In sort:
PF need no nerfs, especially losing a g43 as suggested. They could actually get some buff to their K98 and some nerf to their G43 and lowering the price of the upgrade.(or a redesign becoming cheaper as supplement to support VG while bringing utility)

Penals are a mess and need to be looked at.

One thing though that you should not forget for Penals: They are overly strong because they do not get support by any basic support weapons, so the main line has to carry everything. Panzerfüsiliere get support by an MG and Raketen after a couple of minutes.
I might be wrong on this: but does the G43 not also give increased sight to ~42 or something like that?
I also would not say that Penals vet that much better than Panzerfüsiliere, although I have not tested it yet. Penals get more accuracy, but less RA. Hard to factor in their Last Man ability though, probably makes them a bit better. Tests should tell. Did you already make some, I have to wait until tomorrow? The rest is cheaper satchels vs flare, sprint and faster decap. A snare that is usually more versatile.

I'm not saying that everything is perfect regarding Panzerfüsiliere, Volks and Penals, but all in all they are in a good state if you factor in their respective faction.

Only read like part of the first page of posts so sorry if this is off topic now or already been discussed--inst a major draw of fussies the starting snare which absolutely neuters m3 play which okw is usually weak against? If fielding them forces the Soviet player to change their whole early game plan shouldn't that be taken into account when considering their value instead of just flat stats? The fact that from there you can pivot to something akin to penals (who cost over half again their cost just to have access to) or have a snappy threat to keep a T70 in line should also be accounted for.

The 80mu is there so that going from denying light play into a swarm of penal like troops isn't an easy transition. The high cost is to make it a balanced choice to Shreks as well all while keeping volks a viable option (cheaper and better scaling) so you mix and match as needed instead of fully replace. Imagine if ass grens could upgrade to STGs. It would be stupid easy to easily transition from a strong start to a strong midgame with little effort. Plan ahead. That's the idea between the fussies design.

If fielding them forces the Soviet player to change their whole early game plan shouldn't that be taken into account when considering their value instead of just flat stats?

No that makes too much sense

Only read like part of the first page of posts so sorry if this is off topic now or already been discussed--inst a major draw of fussies the starting snare which absolutely neuters m3 play which okw is usually weak against? ...

I have respond that but will do once more
M3 abuse is something that is no longer necessary and it is cheesy it should be removed from the game by making VG faust require truck built not set up and making RW require truck set up.

One thing though that you should not forget for Penals: They are overly strong because they do not get support by any basic support weapons, so the main line has to carry everything. Panzerfüsiliere get support by an MG and Raketen after a couple of minutes.

They get support by m3/sniper. Actually it is PF that get no support in the first minute since their are simply UP before upgrade.

I might be wrong on this: but does the G43 not also give increased sight to ~42 or something like that?

yes it does

I also would not say that Penals vet that much better than Panzerfüsiliere, although I have not tested it yet. Penals get more accuracy, but less RA. Hard to factor in their Last Man ability though, probably makes them a bit better. Tests should tell. Did you already make some, I have to wait until tomorrow? The rest is cheaper satchels vs flare, sprint and faster decap. A snare that is usually more versatile.

I am not saying theat penal vet "that much" better. I am saying that PF start UP because according to their design they will be compensated by becoming stronger. That simply is not the case since their vet bonus are inline with the Penals that start stronger and do not need an 80 munition invested in them.


Last point I need to make is that imo allot of people seem to underestimate the importance of timing. G43 PF become available later the Penals. The time difference might not significant but it actually is. According to Siphon X analysis the time difference between CP gain across 1v1 and 4vs4 is only around 3 minutes but even that has a significant impact on performance of call in units.

I'm not saying that everything is perfect regarding Panzerfüsiliere, Volks and Penals, but all in all they are in a good state if you factor in their respective faction.

Imo they could:

Have their K98 improved and G43 become weaker so that:
Perform better at spwan
Perform according to cost when upgrade with Shreck
Have more linear DPS when losing models
or
Get 6 G43 so their DPS drop off becomes linear (DPS corrected)

Have their upgrade cost reduced since compared to Penal the cost is not really justified.

Or redesigned to be a support units for VG based more on their utility and less in their DPS.
That would mean something like reducing cost to around 240 lowering the g43 or making it free and reducing the number of weapons to 1-2.

On the other hand Penal need to be looked at and at the very least follow a similar design as PF and have start weaker but have a SVT available as weapon upgrade for them.

Finally units balance should be looked at all vet levels.

I have respond that but will do once more
M3 abuse is something that is no longer necessary and it is cheesy it should be removed from the game by making VG faust require truck built not set up and making RW require truck set up.

Or you can stop dictating massive changes to factions you have no authority over since you don’t play them at a high level.

And we can all just ignore the fact you asked for the raketen to require a truck built.

I don’t really wanna go into specifics since it’s a paragraph on why this kills okw early game Vs UC/WC51 builds but just do us all a favour and don’t bother.

Or you can stop dictating massive changes to factions you have no authority over since you don’t play them at a high level.

I am not "dictating" I am suggesting and that is one of porpoise of this forum.
You claim that someone need authority is simply silly. I have been providing suggestion for the balance of this games for years now, being a part of all the beta teams even the closed ones.

Actually Relic demonstrated her recognition of my contribution for my feedback by including me in the Credits of the EFA campaign (for which I am thankful). Practically I am much more "authorized" to provide suggestions than you.

And we can all just ignore the fact you asked for the raketen to require a truck built.

I don’t really wanna go into specifics since it’s a paragraph on why this kills okw early game Vs UC/WC51 builds but just do us all a favour and don’t bother.

Your opinion that making faust available earlier while delaying RE slightly will "kills okw early game Vs UC/WC51" simply defies any logic.