COH2 winter balance mod - discussion

It's also good idea to touch some small stuff in this patch.

Do you guys can consider reducing the price of a stun nade for Sturmpio. Current price is 30 ammo and it's way to expensive for a nade that only stun. It allow you to win engagement but cannot wipe or kill models like a normal frag. If not at least make it cheaper at vet3 or so.

Small change that won't break anything and help utilize ability.

that's the pre 2015 it had awfull pen back then, it could not even pen a p4 reliably

Yea, I took into account the lower pen when doing the calculations.

Noobs aren't taken into account when it comes to balancing, so this isn't argument.

It's not "noobs", it's core design. OST relies much more heavily on MGs than any other faction, and Grens combine the smallest mainline squad size with the "slowest" (setup time, rotation speed, etc.) mainline upgrade (LMG42). Their vulnerability to indirect fire has been made pretty clear with the past (and current) state of the USF Pak-Howie and Scott.

You can't play OST without being static for some period of time, without relying on specific docs.

Why?
Allies didn't get mobility buffs when turbomortar reigned supreme, in fact opposite happened, they had their mobility lowered by a lot by increasing setup times and removing mobility abilities.


The irony, given opposite happened to allied team weapons.

Something being imbalanced in the past doesn't justify making things imbalanced in the present. The idea is to make the game better for everyone, not to get "revenge" for past mistakes.

Something being imbalanced in the past doesn't justify making things imbalanced in the present. The idea is to make the game better for everyone, not to get "revenge" for past mistakes.

yea if it's about revenge we would have p4 shooting like machine gun fior a month and then 3 month of op ISG and g34 mortar + ultra OP panther with 65 range

It's too easy to call everything powercreep when you don't remember how strong factions were on release. If you have something strong, then you nerf it and then you buff it to lower levels than in initial state, is it powercreep at all?

Let's "nerf" every faction to release levels. You would want the current so called "power creep" back in less than a week.

Oh yes! Bring back release UKF! OG Infantry sections, 1600hp Churchill, win-button artillery cover, nuclear air supremacy, PIAT Commandos 1-shotting tanks, 240 dmg Tulips, OG Land Matress, original emplacements, Command-UC, double flamer Crocodile, Comet spam, man those were the dark (and amazing) days. Wehraboos would have bled from their a-holee from pure anger.

Letss keep going then, double 1919 for riflemen, with smoke one every squad, release M1 mortar, old P47 loiter, Jagtiger with 85 shooting through objects, Volksgren shreck blobs, suppressing Kubel
352 Armor Panther spam with 3xstacked armor bulletins (whats that? ~370 armor on a medium tank? xD) Suppresing LeIGs, Stuka dive bomb wiping everything in its area, pre-nerf Cmd. Panther etc.

God, you can get PTSD just from reading this stuff we removed, power-creep my ass.

Can't we also make mortars a little better than they currently are? IMO they all underperform massively.

At least make the smoke barrage more responsive so it doesn't take ages for them to fire a stupid smoke shell in front of an MG.

Also maybe reduce scatter on the barrage? It seems very unreliable to try and counter MGs with it and that's the main purpose of a mortar after all. Not sure if it's good design that you try to barrage an MG and after a full barrage you still haven't done any significant damage.

I actually had an idea for a neat way to buff mortars.

The mortar smoke barrage's cooldown syncs up almost perfectly with when the smoke clears. If you babysit a mortar, you can keep an area smoked forever.

So why not make it a sustained ability like Attack Ground? Order a mortar to lay down smoke, and it'll keep doing that until you tell it to do something else.

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God, you can get PTSD just from reading this stuff we removed, power-creep my ass.

I guess climate change does not exist either.

And of corse there is not reason why units/abilities that where OP/fine for years had to be buff before becoming extinct like:
PG to T0
Ober 60 fuel cheaper
G43s
PPsh
...

Just because, somethings were broken at some point in time, it does not mean that there is no power creep.

I'm happy with IR HT rework idea, but on the other hand what OKW will need to use to counter/reveal camo units? Drive with kubelwagen can work for first few minutes but what in the lategame? Vet 1 ability is quite ok, but you need to vet KW and keep it alive, what isn't that easy. Ostheer have access to stuka recon plane which can be countered with aa tool (fair enough) but with OKW you can use only doctrinal flares for recon (not revealing camo units tho) or use "smoke drop" but it's not it's primarly role to provide reconessance.

Good point, OKW is losing its ability to reveal units in camo with the IR HT redesign. Maybe another reason to give the new IR HT some sort of recon ability, either single pass or similar to the brit command vehicle?

I actually had an idea for a neat way to buff mortars.

The mortar smoke barrage's cooldown syncs up almost perfectly with when the smoke clears. If you babysit a mortar, you can keep an area smoked forever.

So why not make it a sustained ability like Attack Ground? Order a mortar to lay down smoke, and it'll keep doing that until you tell it to do something else.

You mean why not have mortars with smoke shells as a different type of munition instead of barrage ?

I guess climate change does not exist either.

And of corse there is not reason why units/abilities that where OP/fine for years had to be buff before becoming extinct like:
PG to T0
Ober 60 fuel cheaper
G43s
PPsh
...

Just because, somethings were broken at some point in time, it does not mean that there is no power creep.

Climate change while it exists is a complete red herring here.

Based on previous posts in this very thread about the progression of M36s and Panthers and etc, it just seems like there's a lot of reworking instead of power creep.

In fact, there seems to be less alpha damage, less RNG, less one shot wipes, and far more tatical options than ever before.

If you look at things like Mortars it also seem to be that some things are being toned down from its original state.

You mean why not have mortars with smoke shells as a different type of munition instead of barrage ?

Sort of? You wouldn't be able to autofire smoke.

The most concise explanation is the mortar won't stop firing a smoke barrage until you tell it to.

Climate change while it exists is a complete red herring here.

Based on previous posts in this very thread about the progression of M36s and Panthers and etc, it just seems like there's a lot of reworking instead of power creep.

In fact, there seems to be less alpha damage, less RNG, less one shot wipes, and far more tatical options than ever before.

If you look at things like Mortars it also seem to be that some things are being toned down from its original state.

Removing cheese is one thing and good thing.

But how do you explain that the units and abilities that mentioned that worked fine for year had to be buffed to stay competitive or what was once deemed OP is not deemed UP? The only explanation I see is power creep.

Removing cheese is one thing and good thing.

But how do you explain that the units and abilities that mentioned that worked fine for year had to be buffed to stay competitive or what was once deemed OP is not deemed UP? The only explanation I see is power creep.

Or maybe they were nerfed from their original concept?

Show Spoiler

Factions released with HIGH power levels and then they were nerfed while retaining only some elements. New factions basically released with original faction levels of power while the whole game was in a different power level after so many nerfs.
From a game design point, it's better to release strong OVERPOWERED content than the opposite. You gather more information and engagements from your players than if you release something which no one would ever use. The issue with this approach, is that you must update your content in a short manner (if you don't, then you get Tiger Ace levels of problems).

Powercreep is not inherently bad. Depends on how you apply it and how you act upon things that might lag behind.

WFA levels of DPS re-introduction was bad. Adding complexity and depth in certain areas is not IMO.

Removing cheese is one thing and good thing.

But how do you explain that the units and abilities that mentioned that worked fine for year had to be buffed to stay competitive or what was once deemed OP is not deemed UP? The only explanation I see is power creep.

Yeah, can't deny that some units are changed in order to stay competitive. Panzer Grens are a really recent example. They got a new ability and also moved to the HQ building.

Although a net positive for Ost, it is also a response to a net loss for Ost (which is the nerfing of mobile defense that really impacted midgame )

I don't think there's always a curve upwards but rather a flutuating wave of balancing. There was a time where only Soviets and Ost was played in tournaments. Now a new element has been introduced with Heavy tanks, but it was too strong and now is being tuned back. Even Recon which is notoriously good vs ost is being nerfed. The degree of which is arguable.

Can you say though that this Heavy tank meta isn't just as bad as call in T34/85 meta or opie opie Eite troops or Terminator Infiltration troops WITH GRENADES ON SPAWN? There's always going to be cancer in different flavors and forms but I think in general there is much less shitty over the top stuff and daamge has been consistently tuned to be more perdictable.

Yes there are absolutely stuff that are opie right now but that's why we have these review periods to catch these bugs and iron them out.

Just because, somethings were broken at some point in time, it does not mean that there is no power creep.

Yes, just because things in general are weaker than they used to be it means there is no power creep, not in long term anyway.
I could write an entire list of units that have been weakend (entire GROUPS of units even) but what's the point? You can read the patch notes just fine (I believe in you!) just read them all and not only the bits that support your claim (pro tip of the day).
Changes to the unit timings come specifically to introduce units back into the meta WITHOUT buffing their stats to OP leves, and to diversify builds (which has been a big point of the last few patches)

Also, even though elchino already adressed your points, these changes came from: changes of the unit power level (which made their place in the tech tree no longer reasonable), and/or way to diversify the builds (PGrens) or as a result of past (over)nerfs.

yea if it's about revenge we would have p4 shooting like machine gun fior a month and then 3 month of op ISG and g34 mortar + ultra OP panther with 65 range

Where were you for the launch of OKW?

And bugs aren't balance decisions. They are accidents. As this mod shows there's a lot of them in the game...

Make Ost T3 50mp cheaper.

Make Ost T3 50mp cheaper.

I'm not sure what that'd achieve.

I'm not sure what that'd achieve.

Oh ya know it doesn't hurt, since 50mp cheaper usf nades apparently doesn't hurt either.

Noobs aren't taken into account when it comes to balancing, so this isn't argument.
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The irony...

When it comes to buff IS blobs, noobs are taken account then? Why don't you say a thing about that?

And since the balance team is SO vigilant on stuff that wipes easily like frag bombs, it's time to nerf zis barrage which doesn't give any time at all to pack up support weapons.