State of the Soviets

This post highlights the problem with Sov.
They have a solution for everything at any phase of the game. Doctrine plays a part now that their stock units are so good.

Tiger does not counter SU85 sorry. 60TD needs to drop some range then we say.
IS2 instead counters everything Wehr have, maybe except Elefant...

Please stop the axis up sentiment. Axis also have a solution in every fase of the game. If any tank gets the drop on the su85 or flank it its a good as dead. In a 1 on 1 a tiger will beat it period. It wont however beat a properly supported su85 as it shoudnt.

I don't understand why the soviet player shouldn't be rewarded for keeping his conscripts alive till the late game especially when they drop like flies.
They require 10 fuel and mp for molotov
10 fuel and mp for at nade.
And then 50 ammo more for the 7 man upgrade. Why they shouldn't perform like they performing? After all this investment in a squad i see no reason why they shouldn't be able to hold their own. OST get free tech unlocks as they proceed. Okw get the same treatment. Volks can even salvage stuff. My point being this thread looks like a Christmas soviet nerf list which i hope balance team pays no heed.

Because my units are mostly 4 man that aren't that difficult to wipe. Good luck nailing 7 man cons. Losing a vet 3 gren is devastating. Losing a vet 3 7-man con isn't a big deal because due to the upgrade they are easily replaced.



Because the point of Conscripts is that they are supposed to be high utility units, not DPS machines. That's what Penals are for. But now with the 7 man they do get high dps in cover on top of maintaining all its utility and being very difficult to kill.

As for the IS2 and Tiger, the difference is that the Su85 has enough penetration and damage to deal with a Tiger. Axis do not have a tank destroyer that can do likewise.

Good luck wiping ost 4 men squads or okw 5 men squads with no nades to do it in mere seconds. Sov tanks such as the t70 and t34 being stronger against inf including 4 vs 6 man sqauds is as intended. sov t70 and t34 are pretty weak to shit in the AT and armour department. They need to excel against something.

Cons where supposed to be high on utility. but only a quarter of that utility comes out of the gate. The other quarter after expensive and exclusive side tech. The last half is divided over multyple doctrines.
Cons dropped of so hard because their utility did not scale in any meaningfull way or was in doctrines nor did their dps scale well compared to dps buff and upgrades of other main lines. only the faster molly throw speed was a welcome change.
Cons where dropping like flies despite being "durable" losing to almost all if not all infantry while draining you mp muni and have a high micro requirement and doctrine dependancy to be cost effective. in the past it was even worse because they had the highest rng based dps there was in the game.

While penals are strong esp early on. They dont scale as well as other main inf. Their HH at is also weaker and harder to fully utilize. Sov have no inf to hold ground without 7tm man or doctrinal inf. we all know how good the maxim is at that "cough" 1 Volksquad "Cough" Deathloop "cough" being more expensive as an mg42 "cough"

People keep saying that cons are supposed to be cheap and durable utility squads. But the have higher costs overall then grens and volks. This includes models lost/reinforced teching and ability use (muni drain) and micro tax. Why shoudnt they preform good after full tech and 50 muni invested?

The su 85 having good enough pen to deal with a tiger? why is that you wonder? Blame OKW and the non doc superheavy KT. stug is sturdier then the su76 the panther is a lot more durable then the su85. ost makes up for that in durability and in the panthers case also mobility.

I don't understand why the soviet player shouldn't be rewarded for keeping his conscripts alive till the late game especially when they drop like flies.
They require 10 fuel and mp for molotov
10 fuel and mp for at nade.
And then 50 ammo more for the 7 man upgrade. Why they shouldn't perform like they performing? After all this investment in a squad i see no reason why they shouldn't be able to hold their own. OST get free tech unlocks as they proceed. Okw get the same treatment. Volks can even salvage stuff. My point being this thread looks like a Christmas soviet nerf list which i hope balance team pays no heed.

My thoughts exactly!

Ok you don't seem to know what a "benchmark" is.

The "Meter" or the Kgr is not an "absolute measurement" it is a arbitrary choice made and is express relatively to that choice. If the side of your house is 7 meter than it "relatively" 7 times bigger than a meter and if you weight 80 Kgrs you have "relatively" 80 times the mass of the Kgr

Offtopic, interesting enough, around a year ago, the KG has been made an ABSOLUTE arbitrary value which no longer is based on a physical object.

Show Spoiler

Ontopic:

I feel like this is the point when a reasonable thread goes completely overboard. Maybe calm down and wait for Siphon's numbers before removing Soviets from the game?

+1

Remember that there is nerfing focused on what is meta and have been dominating while doing so in a manner that the unit been changed is still usable and there is nerfing so we have another faction to keep company with UKF.

I don't understand why the soviet player shouldn't be rewarded for keeping his conscripts alive till the late game especially when they drop like flies.
They require 10 fuel and mp for molotov
10 fuel and mp for at nade.
And then 50 ammo more for the 7 man upgrade. Why they shouldn't perform like they performing? After all this investment in a squad i see no reason why they shouldn't be able to hold their own. OST get free tech unlocks as they proceed. Okw get the same treatment. Volks can even salvage stuff. My point being this thread looks like a Christmas soviet nerf list which i hope balance team pays no heed.

My thoughts exactly!

It's a combination of resilience and MP cost. Vet 3, 7-man cons have a combined 560hp pool; that's a LOT of HP to deal with, especially with their decent vet and free/easily available green cover. Additionally, when in that self-built green cover, they're doing 10-20% more DPS, depending on range.

Having a powerful unit, if you've managed to keep them that long, is fair. The problem is, in that late-game state, even losing 6 out of the 7 models only means paying 102mp to reinforce the squad back to 100%. That's simply far too cost efficient for the amount of HP your able to put on the field, let alone the DPS.

Then, on top of that, if you manage to somehow lose that vet 3 squad, a new vet 0 squad pays 50muni for the upgrade, does 10-20% more DPS from their self-built green cover, AND gains vet 20% faster, giving you that lost vet 3 squad back incredibly quickly - and it's not costing a ton of MP to keep them reinforced.

Penals: Increase price to 340mp, give back flamethrower.

Best idea of the thread. Six man flamethrower squads that vet up instantly if you fight them in cover.

Good luck wiping ost 4 men squads or okw 5 men squads with no nades to do it in mere seconds. Sov tanks such as the t70 and t34 being stronger against inf including 4 vs 6 man sqauds is as intended. sov t70 and t34 are pretty weak to shit in the AT and armour department. They need to excel against something.

Wiping squads is not the role of Conscripts. That's what you get Penals for.

It would be like me complaining that Osttruppen aren't wipey enough.

Cons where supposed to be high on utility. but only a quarter of that utility comes out of the gate. The other quarter after expensive and exclusive side tech. The last half is divided over multyple doctrines.
Cons dropped of so hard because their utility did not scale in any meaningfull way or was in doctrines nor did their dps scale well compared to dps buff and upgrades of other main lines. only the faster molly throw speed was a welcome change.
Cons where dropping like flies despite being "durable" losing to almost all if not all infantry while draining you mp muni and have a high micro requirement and doctrine dependancy to be cost effective. in the past it was even worse because they had the highest rng based dps there was in the game.

They get almost 20 % damage increase just from the 7th man. Again, they're not meant to outperform upgraded Grenadiers or Volksgrenadiers.

The side tech also isn't that expensive, not anymore. I'd also point out that Wehrmacht also does have to pay for infantry upgrades by being the only faction that has to double in the form of battle phases and buildings.

While penals are strong esp early on. They dont scale as well as other main inf. Their HH at is also weaker and harder to fully utilize. Sov have no inf to hold ground without 7tm man or doctrinal inf. we all know how good the maxim is at that "cough" 1 Volksquad "Cough" Deathloop "cough" being more expensive as an mg42 "cough"

People keep saying that cons are supposed to be cheap and durable utility squads. But the have higher costs overall then grens and volks. This includes models lost/reinforced teching and ability use (muni drain) and micro tax. Why shoudnt they preform good after full tech and 50 muni invested?

Conscripts have micro tax? How about having to deal with a faction that is solely dependent on the MG42 to be viable? And if you think Penals don't scale well into the late game, let me introduce you to the amazing 4 man Grenadiers that can get wiped if you don't pay attention for even one second.

The su 85 having good enough pen to deal with a tiger? why is that you wonder? Blame OKW and the non doc superheavy KT. stug is sturdier then the su76 the panther is a lot more durable then the su85. ost makes up for that in durability and in the panthers case also mobility.

Nonsense. IS2 has the same armor as the King Tiger, and neither OKW nor Wehrmacht has any kind of tank destroyer that can adequately deal with it. Stugs and JP4s lack the pentration, and Panthers can merely hold back the IS2, not in any way compete. Especially once the IS2 hits vet2.

Well Soviet tanks have little reason to have MG with the DPS of the 3 axis tank get at the cost of MU.

And there are many reason for that.

Generally speaking vehicles MG need an overhaul so that the that have similar profiles.

Actually, there is a very good reason for that:

Developer Comments: We felt the T-34/76 was under performing and needed some improvements to help deal with infantry.

You being completely in denial about it doesn't change its viability at all.
It will completely explode your mind and splatter brain matter all over the place, but cheap units also need to excel at something, this is why Luchs is not complete, impotent garbage incapable of doing anything when put in contrast with Stuart and T-70.

Farlion i get an error trying to reply. ill do it like this.

I never said cons should do that, and they cant either. one unit less to worry about one shotting grens and pgrens and pios,s etc.

But this thread is mostly about the 7th man of cons. like is said the total recource package to get cons at their peak preformance is higher then volks and grens. So how are they not meant to outpreform them both?
people say cons get a 20% dps increase behind green cover. how much damage increase do other main lines get after ai upgrades i wonder. i am not the most adept at the numbers but i am curious if it is simaler to the 20% of cons wich is tied to green cover.

Penals are strong but not capable wiping full health squads in mere seconds. The are not grens or Pgrens or Falls or Ober or Sections or Rifleman who all have grenades with short timers next to powerfull ai upgrades. If penals wipe a squad with the ages long timer on the satchel it is fault on the recieving player.

ost is not soley dependend on the mg42 to be viable. they are just more reliant on their support weapons until armour hits the field. if they where why would they even build grens snipers etc.

all factions that have good grenades on their inf are capable at wiping very early on. soviets need doctrines to do the same or wait for t70 etc. okw need docs as well or wait for obers.

you missed the part where i said the KT is non doc. that is the biggest reason. vs OKW you can always expect it. the IS2 is in very few doctrines so there is a fairly low chance to excpect it.
you dont balance a faction on doctrines of the opposing factions.

I can't reply for some reason but looks like the OP needs to play from soviets some more.

How can penals scale into late game when they have no grenades?
Conscripts have no grenades.
And if you 7 man upgrade they also lose a weapon slot. i.e the one and only weapon slot they have. All other infantry can equip with 2 slots. Volks get stgs. They increase their dp no?

And why do you say they are not meant for overperforming volks and grens? In reality they don't. As this game progresses in life certain roles of units change.

I could argue so many broken things in axis like IR HT but i won't.

so it is CLEAR to all that SOV ist by far the best faction in the game...

and have to be tuned down...

WHY THE HACK ar all the fanboys cry tears!!!

Meanwhile .. mimimim Fall's to strong mimimi nerf mimimi...

Nerf the stupid T70 and than 7 Man cons.

It's a combination of resilience and MP cost. Vet 3, 7-man cons have a combined 560hp pool; that's a LOT of HP to deal with, especially with their decent vet and free/easily available green cover. Additionally, when in that self-built green cover, they're doing 10-20% more DPS, depending on range.

Having a powerful unit, if you've managed to keep them that long, is fair. The problem is, in that late-game state, even losing 6 out of the 7 models only means paying 102mp to reinforce the squad back to 100%. That's simply far too cost efficient for the amount of HP your able to put on the field, let alone the DPS.

Then, on top of that, if you manage to somehow lose that vet 3 squad, a new vet 0 squad pays 50muni for the upgrade, does 10-20% more DPS from their self-built green cover, AND gains vet 20% faster, giving you that lost vet 3 squad back incredibly quickly - and it's not costing a ton of MP to keep them reinforced.

You are forgetting that the Soviet have to wait far longer than anyone else to get that upgrade. You get a whack more out of a very similar cost from a t34 than you do a T70 because timing and extra costs are important. You are either getting 7man from t3 and a bunch of side techs or a full tech to t4 when volks and grens are getting (and benifiting from) their upgrades waaaaaay sooner. The Power of 7 man help make up for that lack of time to generate value. I do think it needs a slight toning down but it's good for a reason. What's more is it comes on a unit that was dead before the addition of the upgrade because of the lack of scaling whilst having to deal with the aforementioned axis upgrades which hit the field quite rapidly.

Thread titled: State of the soviets

Content:

This thing soviet op, please nerf

This thing soviet op, please nerf

and this thing soviet op too, please nerf

oh, also penals are not viable anymore, because cons op, please nerf.


http://www.companyofheroes.com/leaderboards#profile/steam/76561197984739690/standings

Always by the same people.
So the same question as always: Do you really qualify to speak about the state of Soviets?


Any mention of how bad the maxim is? the 82mm? Reinforcing costs?

while barely bleeding MP due to the reinforcement costs.

Best joke so far.

Couldn't read all of the above posts, so sorry if some points have already been covered extensively. My take on the issue:

Previously, SOV was very bland since the only viable build was T1 Penals into T70. This was because 1. Conscripts were only mediocre and hard to replace in the late game and 2. The Maxim in T2 lacks a lot of firepower. So the best bet was to try to survive the vehicle game until you get a T70. To make Conscripts more viable, balance team introduced a late game upgrade - Mobilized Reserves. That was basically the only major SOV specific change (apart from IS2, which was part of an overall heavy overhaul).

I think we should look at IS2 and Conscript problem as two different things. The easiest solution would be to tone down the late game buff of mobilized reserves. Conscripts have not become better during early game, but are the main reason why SOV is hard to bleed in the late game. Just up the MP cost a little bit or reduce the DPS boost in cover so that they are less efficient.

Why not just revisit giving cons an actual weapon upgrade and dropping the mobilized reserves?

Farlion i get an error trying to reply. ill do it like this.

I never said cons should do that, and they cant either. one unit less to worry about one shotting grens and pgrens and pios,s etc.

But this thread is mostly about the 7th man of cons. like is said the total recource package to get cons at their peak preformance is higher then volks and grens. So how are they not meant to outpreform them both?
people say cons get a 20% dps increase behind green cover. how much damage increase do other main lines get after ai upgrades i wonder. i am not the most adept at the numbers but i am curious if it is simaler to the 20% of cons wich is tied to green cover.

Penals are strong but not capable wiping full health squads in mere seconds. The are not grens or Pgrens or Falls or Ober or Sections or Rifleman who all have grenades with short timers next to powerfull ai upgrades. If penals wipe a squad with the ages long timer on the satchel it is fault on the recieving player.

ost is not soley dependend on the mg42 to be viable. they are just more reliant on their support weapons until armour hits the field. if they where why would they even build grens snipers etc.

all factions that have good grenades on their inf are capable at wiping very early on. soviets need doctrines to do the same or wait for t70 etc. okw need docs as well or wait for obers.

you missed the part where i said the KT is non doc. that is the biggest reason. vs OKW you can always expect it. the IS2 is in very few doctrines so there is a fairly low chance to excpect it.
you dont balance a faction on doctrines of the opposing factions.

No worries.

The problem with the 7 man upgrades people is that it's simply too good of a package.

You're also ignoring what I said earlier. Grens also need tech to get them to peak performance, by the virtue of having to tech twice; researching battle phase and putting down t1 or t2.


As for Soviets, at this moment in time, you will see an IS2 nearly every time. If you face a Soviet in 1v1 or 2v2 right now, there's no way they're not going IS2, unless matchmaking has a fetish of putting me against people who only go IS2.

The fact of the matter is that Wehrmacht is depednent on the MG42. Your Grens are not going to beat Penals, Sections or Rifleman on their unless its under extremely favorable circumstances.

Even basic cons need an MG42 to counter, because there will always be more Cons than Grens.

Thread titled: State of the soviets

Content:

This thing soviet op, please nerf

This thing soviet op, please nerf

and this thing soviet op too, please nerf

oh, also penals are not viable anymore, because cons op, please nerf.


http://www.companyofheroes.com/leaderboards#profile/steam/76561197984739690/standings

Always by the same people.
So the same question as always: Do you really qualify to speak about the state of Soviets?


Any mention of how bad the maxim is? the 82mm? Reinforcing costs?


Best joke so far.

I like how you ignore my hundreds of Soviets matches as AT. You also discard the arguments other people made in this thread.

Amusingly, my player card is right next to my profile, why you felt the need to post it is beyond me.

I get you're salty after the whipping I gave you in a 1v1 today, but let's not derail this thread because of it.

I'm stating the obvious, and I don't see 100 games.
Our game today is irrelevant, it has nothing to do with the debate, your smug attitude reveals pretty much what I say is true and you have near no experience with soviets.


It's really just another soviet OP whining circus.
If it's not, just show me where in the whole thread you're "stating" objective facts about the faction and not "this op please nerf"...