State of the Soviets

Some would say grens fall off late games and their faust is a meme too. I would add mg42 a big victim of late game fall off.

Vet Cons before 7man still contribute late game, just less people tried it, tried to vet them. But we dont expect them to go from start to end.
Its the same thing as vet 222,bren,aec,t70 even p4 v 60td. Early units window gets smaller as the match goes. Contributions get more utility less game winning

Now with 7man, they become too good for costs and out last early stock infantry.

Imo only usf and ukf we expect their stock infantry to scale early to late games. By their faction designs

The meme was that was ALL cons could do. Grens still have their LMG that allows for long range support fire and the nade that does the same. As for the lmg... Imagine that but not even having the lmg and relying on the exact same rifles they started with and nothing else... That's the problem, or was anyways.

Mainline units are not the same as 222 (who if it survives can still shoot down planes and provide Los) bren, aec (who still has smoke and its snare) T70 (who can recon, cap and munch infantry) mainline infantry are SUPPOSED to work all game. Cons are not supposed to be an early game unit they are supposed to be an all game unit, and now they are. Previously they were not.

Really it's not rocket science as to why Soviets slightly overperform at the moment. The 7-man upgrade is too powerful currently for its cost, this doesn't necessarily mean the upgrade comes too early as Cons still aren't amazing early game but they are probably the most cost-efficient squad in the entire game once they are bolstered and vetted up. At only 17 mp reinforce cost they are roided up versions of Ostruppen. I would be for the upgrade itself receiving some nerfs, maybe an increase in cost and possibly some slight nerfs to performance in cover to make them a little less efficient against certain units. In change you could make the upgrade not require molo's and AT Nades and be up-gradable once you build Tier 3. The T-70 is in an odd state because it does come late but it is the strongest light tank in the game against infantry and can swing the entire game almost immediately if counters aren't present. I'm not sure if the problem is the T-70 being so strong against infantry that you almost have to go for a Puma to counter or if the Raketen is just too squishy against the T-70. I feel the T-70 could probably be made cheaper but have its performance reduced slightly to compensate making it more like the Panzer II so the SU-76 can fill a Puma-like role in Soviet Tier 3. Plus if T-70 gets toned down we could see more M5's which would be nice. Heavies in general need to be changed but the IS-2 just does everything well. With reduced scatter it no longer struggles against infantry and can wipe units rapidly with decent RNG, it also has really strong armor and can come pretty early at 10 CP. Which can often be a disaster for a player who opted for a medium tank before going for armor that can deal with the IS-2. In general heavies probably need to be delayed somehow, maybe an increase in cost, CP's, or further tech requirements for them. At least for the Pershing, IS-2, and possibly the Ostheer Tiger.

The meme was that was ALL cons could do. Grens still have their LMG that allows for long range support fire and the nade that does the same. As for the lmg... Imagine that but not even having the lmg and relying on the exact same rifles they started with and nothing else... That's the problem, or was anyways.

Mainline units are not the same as 222 (who if it survives can still shoot down planes and provide Los) bren, aec (who still has smoke and its snare) T70 (who can recon, cap and munch infantry) mainline infantry are SUPPOSED to work all game. Cons are not supposed to be an early game unit they are supposed to be an all game unit, and now they are. Previously they were not.

We have to disagree then.

Late game cons provide pretty much the type of ancillary support as you listed. Sov has good callin to supplement as designed. As people now see, put cons behind their sandbag and we good. With vet 7man they god. You can save the callins a bit more. Besides we have doc to equip cons with further goodies.

Btw by mg42, i meant the weapon team. Virtually worthless against vet infantry and or late game tank/arty

I was going to wait for the tourny stats but Im just going to say my piece.

I believe when heavies where first tied to tech I said they should have their original cp requirement being 11cps.

Is2 is a special case, maybe perhaps adjusting its armour to 350 considering that seems most complained about, other alternative is increasing its cost but wont fix the problem.

Conscripts manpower blitz perhaps could see the cover bonus go from 35% to 20% (if not enough, 15%) and adjusting the reinforcement cost to 18 from 17.

And just a tid bit for the su85, reduce the pen bonus from 30% to 15%.

Edit: I think the cover bonus is 30%, if so reduce it to 15%.

Really it's not rocket science as to why Soviets slightly overperform at the moment. The 7-man upgrade is too powerful currently for its cost, this doesn't necessarily mean the upgrade comes too early as Cons still aren't amazing early game but they are probably the most cost-efficient squad in the entire game once they are bolstered and vetted up. At only 17 mp reinforce cost they are roided up versions of Ostruppen. I would be for the upgrade itself receiving some nerfs, maybe an increase in cost and possibly some slight nerfs to performance in cover to make them a little less efficient against certain units. In change you could make the upgrade not require molo's and AT Nades and be up-gradable once you build Tier 3.

Before 7-th man was implemented, i suggested make linear upgrade (with medics you got decreased cost of reinforce, with T2 time of reinforce decreased) and replace flare mine by passive fast sandbag building, but without any combat-bonuses. With T3 got 10MP cost reduction to new squad and with T4 another 20 Mp. Than you could get "mass, cheap" infantry. They don't have any in-combat boosts (besides fast sandbag), but very cheap in maintence. Idea was make cons scaling with natural teching like OST teching works. IT's much easier to balance to prevent huge powerspikes in certain timeframes.

The T-70 is in an odd state because it does come late but it is the strongest light tank in the game against infantry and can swing the entire game almost immediately if counters aren't present.

If you don't have any counter to flame-ht you will be screwed as well. Any enemy move need counter-move. You need counter to M5 Quad, that could lock big zone from you; need proper counter to ass-gren spam or mg-spam.

I'm not sure if the problem is the T-70 being so strong against infantry that you almost have to go for a Puma to counter or if the Raketen is just too squishy against the T-70. I feel the T-70 could probably be made cheaper but have its performance reduced slightly to compensate making it more like the Panzer II so the SU-76 can fill a Puma-like role in Soviet Tier 3. Plus if T-70 gets toned down we could see more M5's which would be nice.

SU-76 NEVER could be like puma (don't have turret, smoke and much worse mobility). Puma could dive any LV, but diving su-76? I suggested make from su-76 arty support unit (could be deployed as kv-2 and use regular barrage for free and smoke barrage), while have penetration potent only against LV. In that case you could have AI tool, but with indirect style, while T-70 is more aggressive style.
M5 good (much cheaper and good suppresion), but only 2 shots from pak or rak and it's gone. T-70 could forget you some mistakes. M5 don't.
Possible decision for t-70 - switchable rounds, like it was in reality.
1. Shrapnel shots - lower rof and pen, but have aoe. Tweak damage and range. You still could deal damage to infantry, but wih lesser range, that make it more "micro-oriented" risky unit.
2. Ap shots - higher rof and pen, but with much less AI power

Heavies in general need to be changed but the IS-2 just does everything well. With reduced scatter it no longer struggles against infantry and can wipe units rapidly with decent RNG, it also has really strong armor and can come pretty early at 10 CP. Which can often be a disaster for a player who opted for a medium tank before going for armor that can deal with the IS-2. In general heavies probably need to be delayed somehow, maybe an increase in cost, CP's, or further tech requirements for them. At least for the Pershing, IS-2, and possibly the Ostheer Tiger.

Heavy meta ALWAYS was win or lose decision, you trying to survive against enemy mediums push while you don't got your heavy. It's very close to T-70 situation, when you have it, you could push enemy, but when first medium arrived, you are 70 fuel down and need wait until your t-34 arrive. THe same with heavies, you could push by mediums your enemy while he waiting heavy.

Mainly it comes down to 7men cons (and to a lesser degree svts) being stupidly made and balanced. it turns average infantry into gods which you can never really truly out trade. I mean when it comes down to it. 7men cons can arrive at 10-15 min, which is relativly quickly considering the benefits. and it makes them stupidly effecient and allows for braindead play because they win almost all engagements. Spamming sandbags+7men is pretty much straight up unbeatable with just infantry.

7men cons can arrive at 10-15 min, which is relativly quickly considering the benefits.

Relatively quickly compared to what? Heavy tanks arrival?
All other infantry related boosts come at the absolute latest at 5th minute, usually at 3rd options are/can be unlocked.

Mainly it comes down to 7men cons (and to a lesser degree svts) being stupidly made and balanced. it turns average infantry into gods which you can never really truly out trade. I mean when it comes down to it. 7men cons can arrive at 10-15 min, which is relativly quickly considering the benefits. and it makes them stupidly effecient and allows for braindead play because they win almost all engagements. Spamming sandbags+7men is pretty much straight up unbeatable with just infantry.

Your suggestions how to make cons PLAYABLE? Cons can't have any weapon upgrades, can't have proper grenades, if they can't stand ground against enemy infantry...farewell cons. Hi, good old penals spam in EVERY SU game. Because your maxims are trash and your cons are trash.
If cons digged in and you want beat them only with infantry...bad news for you. Use combined arms. How you supposed beat ONLY with infantry mg spam? Or falls spam? It's pretty much unbeateable with just infantry.

The maxim either needs a reduction to 5 men or have its suppression nerfed. There is no excuse for a 6 man squad to have that much suppression with a super fast set up time to boot.

Mainly it comes down to 7men cons (and to a lesser degree svts) being stupidly made and balanced. it turns average infantry into gods which you can never really truly out trade. I mean when it comes down to it. 7men cons can arrive at 10-15 min, which is relativly quickly considering the benefits. and it makes them stupidly effecient and allows for braindead play because they win almost all engagements. Spamming sandbags+7men is pretty much straight up unbeatable with just infantry.

As opposed to any other infantry squad behind green cover? Good luck clearing volks from green cover cost effectively with just infantry.

The maxim either needs a reduction to 5 men or have its suppression nerfed. There is no excuse for a 6 man squad to have that much suppression with a super fast set up time to boot.

Update your game, you still seem to be on 2015 year version.

The maxim either needs a reduction to 5 men or have its suppression nerfed. There is no excuse for a 6 man squad to have that much suppression with a super fast set up time to boot.

What is this nonsense. Maxim is still awful.

The maxim either needs a reduction to 5 men or have its suppression nerfed. There is no excuse for a 6 man squad to have that much suppression with a super fast set up time to boot.

Imagine complaining about Maxims in 2019

On the topic of Soviets, why do people see the need for such drastic balancing measures? why not just roll back some of the changes that made them so strong sine last patch and see where that goes? Just nerf the 7-man upgrade a little (regular reinforce costs? no combat bonus in cover?) and push back meta heavy tanks by 1-2 CPs, and we'll have a basis for something.

No need to throw an entire faction under the bus.

That's not how the game works at all. Doctrines aren't assigned to players randomly. Just because it's in 2 out of 20 doctrines doesn't automatically make it a 10% chance. IS2 is in two excellent and meta doctrines, and features in at least 60% to 70% of 1v1 matchups.

The non-doc KT that Allied-only players keep complaining about - that hardly ever shows up. Less than 5% of 1v1 games at best feature a KT.

Note that the thread is about 1v1 and 2v2.

Very true but thats because it isent i win anymore. Just as the cmd panther isent anymore. Stalling for those isent as viable anymore.

Stalling for is2 is to easy now. Same with tiger kv1 kv2 etc.

Soviets are not the problem, IS2 is the issue. If people want the 7man upgrade scaled back, Penals need to be changed to coexist with conscripts.

Soviets are not the problem, IS2 is the issue. If people want the 7man upgrade scaled back, Penals need to be changed to coexist with conscripts.

It means:
Show Spoiler
There must be only one: no matter what roles you come up with for the two starting infantry units, one unit will always be preferable and unit will overlap the role of the other unit, and tug of war will continue. Two starting units are a very bad design.

It means:
Show Spoiler

There must be only one: no matter what roles you come up with for the two starting infantry units, one unit will always be preferable and unit will overlap the role of the other unit, and tug of war will continue. Two starting units are a very bad design.

Grenadiers and panzergrenadiers work though. I think more expensive penals with flamethrowers would work well with conscripts. Obviously this would require an extensive rework of penals and T1 to work side by side with cons build instead of replacing it.

Grenadiers and panzergrenadiers work though. I think more expensive penals with flamethrowers would work well with conscripts. Obviously this would require an extensive rework of penals and T1 to work side by side with cons build instead of replacing it.

They are not starting. They are consistent, you do not lose other units choosing between the Grenadiers and PanzerGrenadiers. At the Soviets, you adjust your gameplay to the unit that is better at the moment and choose between T2 and T1. Grenadiers and Panzergrenadiers complement each other: Grenadiers main unit and ranged, Panzer Grenadiers melee-medium battles and AT support. In the Soviets, this is divided into commanders: the shock troops - CQC. Guard - AT support. In any case, either the Penalties or the Guard are superfluous.