they are playable. all their strenghts are still in gamem
You can say that about any of the 5 factions without context as well and it'll be equally true for each one of them.
The UKF solution
4 Dec 2019, 12:59 PM
#41
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
You can say that about any of the 5 factions without context as well and it'll be equally true for each one of them.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
4 Dec 2019, 13:08 PM
#42
Posts: 39
they are playable. all their strenghts are still in gamem
Enlighten me please
4 Dec 2019, 13:11 PM
#43
Posts: 591 | Subs: 1
Maybe if we actually fixed the UKF pitiful roster and reliance on static emplacements, we could make them fun to play as and against.
Nothing less fun than a painfully handicapped army.
Nothing less fun than a painfully handicapped army.
4 Dec 2019, 13:14 PM
#44
Posts: 39
Maybe if we actually fixed the UKF pitiful roster and reliance on static emplacements, we could make them fun to play as and against.
Nothing less fun than a painfully handicapped army.
Any suggestions as from experience their unit roster feels at times underwhelming?
4 Dec 2019, 16:20 PM
#45
Posts: 203
Honestly, UKF feels like Ost, like worse Ost to be exact
Infantry Sections are like Grens, only more expensive, worse on the move, and/or out of cover (i'm not sure if they that much better even with cover bonus) IS only start working when you pump them full of fuel, mp and munitions (and they still won't have a snare)
UKF gets a T0 Vickers for 260mp, which is very much like an MG42, only much worse
UKF has a vehicle based flamer, only worse (yeah, it's cheaper for sure)
UKF gets a sniper, only worse and comes slightly later (sure it can ping at vehicles, and it's fun but thats not why you get a sniper for)
UKF gets a mortar, only it's immobile
UKF has a Centaur, which i guess is close enough to a Ostwind
UKF has a Cromwell, which is like a P4, only less armoured, and has worse AI
Basically I feel like bunch of the UKF roster is "like Ost, but worse", not much worse, but enough.
Infantry Sections are like Grens, only more expensive, worse on the move, and/or out of cover (i'm not sure if they that much better even with cover bonus) IS only start working when you pump them full of fuel, mp and munitions (and they still won't have a snare)
UKF gets a T0 Vickers for 260mp, which is very much like an MG42, only much worse
UKF has a vehicle based flamer, only worse (yeah, it's cheaper for sure)
UKF gets a sniper, only worse and comes slightly later (sure it can ping at vehicles, and it's fun but thats not why you get a sniper for)
UKF gets a mortar, only it's immobile
UKF has a Centaur, which i guess is close enough to a Ostwind
UKF has a Cromwell, which is like a P4, only less armoured, and has worse AI
Basically I feel like bunch of the UKF roster is "like Ost, but worse", not much worse, but enough.
You can't spell "Power Creep" without REEEEE.
4 Dec 2019, 17:05 PM
#46
Posts: 591 | Subs: 1
Honestly, UKF feels like Ost, like worse Ost to be exact
Infantry Sections are like Grens, only more expensive, worse on the move, and/or out of cover (i'm not sure if they that much better even with cover bonus) IS only start working when you pump them full of fuel, mp and munitions (and they still won't have a snare)
UKF gets a T0 Vickers for 260mp, which is very much like an MG42, only much worse
UKF has a vehicle based flamer, only worse (yeah, it's cheaper for sure)
UKF gets a sniper, only worse and comes slightly later (sure it can ping at vehicles, and it's fun but thats not why you get a sniper for)
UKF gets a mortar, only it's immobile
UKF has a Centaur, which i guess is close enough to a Ostwind
UKF has a Cromwell, which is like a P4, only less armoured, and has worse AI
Basically I feel like bunch of the UKF roster is "like Ost, but worse", not much worse, but enough.
Worse, and with worse options, too.
No pgren equivalent
No halftrack
No casemate TD
No heavy for call in meta like the tiger
No spotting infantry like pios
No cheap squad like ostruppen
No heavy AI AoE vehicle
No rocket Arty
4 Dec 2019, 17:14 PM
#47
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
Worse, and with worse options, too.
No pgren equivalent (Commandos & Airlanding Officer)
No halftrack (M5 from doctrine)
No casemate TD (Firefly is better than StuGG)
No heavy for call in meta like the tiger (Crocodile & AVRE)
No spotting infantry like pios (pyro package Sections)
No cheap squad like ostruppen (Brits had severe manpower shortages throughout the war, why would a cheap 6man squad be relevant for the faction?)
No heavy AI AoE vehicle (Croc & AVRE)
No rocket Arty (Land mattress in doctrine)
4 Dec 2019, 17:15 PM
#48
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Worse, and with worse options, too.
...
No casemate TD
Now why casemate TD is better than the turret one ?
...
No spotting infantry like pios
...
Infantry section get bonus vision at Vet 1 and pyrotechnics provides even more
4 Dec 2019, 18:09 PM
#49
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
But what must the Mg do now after facing that 1 squad? You got it, Retreat! That area is no longer covered by an MG After an engagement with 1 squad head on and a vet 3 MG might I add,
So in that scenario a 340 manpower and 80 munitions squad got forced off and has to reinforce for 120 manpower, by a 260 manpower squad that now has to retreat and reinforce for 66 manpower. Congratulations, you've had a great engagement where you've successfully traded very cost effectively. Next time use sandbags or other cover for your HMG and you can trade even better.
the obers still have 2 vet levels to go
Which is completely irrelevant, since their vet 4 and 5 do not give any combat bonuses.
4 Dec 2019, 18:16 PM
#50
Posts: 224
Everything you just quoted kind of proves the original point - all but two of your rebuttal units are doctrinal (and who considers the AVRE part of the heavy meta?) and most are mutually exclusive. There are some serious holes in the British roster.
4 Dec 2019, 19:20 PM
#51
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
Everything you just quoted kind of proves the original point - all but two of your rebuttal units are doctrinal (and who considers the AVRE part of the heavy meta?) and most are mutually exclusive. There are some serious holes in the British roster.
Indeed there are holes, but people acting like the ukf has nothing but trash are either idiots or have an agenda.
Now let’s see what UKF has that Ostheer doesn’t.
60 range high pen TD
Sturmtiger, but actually good
Satchels on infantry with hammer
Heavy engineers with anvil
Light AT vehicle to contain LV play
Command vehicle to boost DPS of everything around it
5 man mainline inf with double LMGs
4 Dec 2019, 20:47 PM
#52
Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1
Indeed there are holes, but people acting like the ukf has nothing but trash are either idiots or have an agenda.
Now let’s see what UKF has that Ostheer doesn’t.
60 range high pen TD
Sturmtiger, but actually good
Satchels on infantry with hammer
Heavy engineers with anvil
Light AT vehicle to contain LV play
Command vehicle to boost DPS of everything around it
5 man mainline inf with double LMGs
you forgot the 5 km range vickers in house and the fact that you need half as many APM as playing with OST
4 Dec 2019, 21:00 PM
#53
Posts: 773
#
So in that scenario a 340 manpower and 80 munitions squad got forced off and has to reinforce for 120 manpower, by a 260 manpower squad that now has to retreat and reinforce for 66 manpower. Congratulations, you've had a great engagement where you've successfully traded very cost effectively. Next time use sandbags or other cover for your HMG and you can trade even better.
Which is completely irrelevant, since their vet 4 and 5 do not give any combat bonuses.
STOP USING HYPERBOLE! Or just stop replying you clearly don't understand the point I am making and you just look idiotic. A 210 mp Unit for 30 munitions with a single AT gun can (Listen CAN, even thought it is far cheaper, not WILL, CAN, that means theoretically, it doesn't mean the player should take better care of his tanks or any of that bollocks) kill any vehicle in the game, from a kuble to a tiger 2 because, you know, counters, nothing to do with positioning with attacking with another unit, its all irrelevant, at the end of the day it CAN happen because its a direct counter to that specific unit.An infantry squad, walking up to the front of an MG when both units have 0 cover a counter to a unit should not see the counter destroyed (Here I will explain why neither units had 0 cover(Ahem: If I was to demonstrate an in game situation I would have scouted the area first with a volks squad, I would have seen an MG in green cover and then I would have flanked the MG to where it couldnt shoot the Obers at all, this, however, wasnt the point of the video, it wasnt to show "How not to use an MG" it was to show my precise statement that "Obers can 1v1 an MG from the front", If you want me to do a video on obers in green cover Vs a Vickers in green cover I can because, guess who wins that one...))
But, let me just use your logic for a change at is seems fun:
Yes in this scenario the OKW player now has to spend 120 manpower to reinforce his obers but meanwhile the UKF player has lost his fuel and it is now being occupied by a second squad of obers that wiped his At gun and 2 tommie squads and is now sitting behind green cover with a P4 nearby. Meanwhile due to the counter attack attempt, the OKW saw an opening and now a Tiger 2 sits on his cut off with a Rak a sturm and several volks! My oh my, the OKW player sure made good use of that 120 man power that it lost!
Whoops sorry, I left my fantasy open for you to mention how the UKF player can just go and attack the other side of the map, or whatever you want to say to justify AN INFANTRY UNIT BEATING AN MG 1v1 FROM THE FRONT with absolutely no input from the player, even snipers you know, the things perfect for taking out team weapons, have to be microd in order to wipe and MG frontally.
You are basically saying the same thing as a Firefly should not be able to kill a tiger because it is simply cheaper despite the FF being a tank destroyer (You know like an MG being a counter to infantry but because obers are elite and snowflake, Mg's shouldn't counter them when they run into the front of them, in no cover with no other squads attacking
.Oh and erm Obers get no combat bonuses after vet 3? So the fact they can now suppress infantry at vet 4 isn't a combat bonus, and according to this webise they also get -20% received accuracy at vet 4 but thats probably changed and I cant check currently but, OK!
4 Dec 2019, 21:05 PM
#54
Posts: 591 | Subs: 1
No pgren equivalent (Commandos & Airlanding Officer)
No halftrack (M5 from doctrine)
No casemate TD (Firefly is better than StuGG)
No heavy for call in meta like the tiger (Crocodile & AVRE)
No spotting infantry like pios (pyro package Sections)
No cheap squad like ostruppen (Brits had severe manpower shortages throughout the war, why would a cheap 6man squad be relevant for the faction?)
No heavy AI AoE vehicle (Croc & AVRE)
No rocket Arty (Land mattress in doctrine)
1) Doctrinal vs. Non doctrinal
2) Doctrinal vs. Non doctrinal
3) Firefly isn't that good, comes later and costs more. This is minor compared to the other points.
4) AVRE is bad, actually. Crocodile costs as much as a heavy but cannot fight said havies, so it is not a part of the call in meta as it stands.
5) Point. I always forget that.
6) Not having the option is the point. Also - British & Commonwealth formed nearly 9 million serving. Hardly tiny. America only fielded 16, and germany 15 (all figures rounded off)
7) Doctrinal vs Non doctrinal
8) Doctrinal vs Non doctrinal
At best, with a commander, you can have almost as many units as a stock Ost roster has. Nearly.
Whereas ost commanders are many, with a wide option of abilities, and many similar options allowing granular choices
4 Dec 2019, 21:07 PM
#55
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
1) Doctrinal vs. Non doctrinal
2) Doctrinal vs. Non doctrinal
3) Firefly isn't that good, comes later and costs more. This is minor compared to the other points.
4) AVRE is bad, actually. Crocodile costs as much as a heavy but cannot fight said havies, so it is not a part of the call in meta as it stands.
5) Point. I always forget that.
6) Not having the option is the point. Also - British & Commonwealth formed nearly 9 million serving. Hardly tiny. America only fielded 16, and germany 15 (all figures rounded off)
7) Doctrinal vs Non doctrinal
8) Doctrinal vs Non doctrinal
At best, with a commander, you can have almost as many units as a stock Ost roster has. Nearly.
Whereas ost commanders are many, with a wide option of abilities, and many similar options allowing granular choices
How to invalidate everything you say in one simple sentence.
4 Dec 2019, 21:09 PM
#56
Posts: 773
Indeed there are holes, but people acting like the ukf has nothing but trash are either idiots or have an agenda.
Now let’s see what UKF has that Ostheer doesn’t.
60 range high pen TD
Sturmtiger, but actually good
Satchels on infantry with hammer
Heavy engineers with anvil
Light AT vehicle to contain LV play
Command vehicle to boost DPS of everything around it
5 man mainline inf with double LMGs
You know you just mixed and matched non doc and doc units so, if this is a free for all then....
60 range high pen TD - You have Elephant
Sturmtiger, but actually good - OST have a sturmtiger? You've a Brumbar
Satchels on infantry with hammer - Bundle nades > Heavy gammon bombs
Heavy engineers with anvil - You dont mean for combat efficiency surely, if you mean repairs then ok thats 1
Light AT vehicle to contain LV play - Erm, teller mines? Or Puma you know, as we can throw in doctrines when it helps
Command vehicle to boost DPS of everything around it - Command panzer says hi
5 man mainline inf with double LMGs - With no snares, but 5 men grens say hi with the LMG and a bren gun they picked up from a tommy squad
4 Dec 2019, 21:18 PM
#57
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
You are basically saying the same thing as a Firefly should not be able to kill a tiger because it is simply cheaper despite the FF being a tank destroyer (You know like an MG being a counter to infantry but because obers are elite and snowflake, Mg's shouldn't counter them when they run into the front of them, in no cover with no other squads attacking
Yes, I am saying that a Firefly (Vickers) should not win a 1v1 against a Tiger that is disproportionally more expensive (Obers) and is designed to kill vehicles (Obers: infantry). Spoiler alert: the Firefly loses in this match-up. The fact that the Firefly is a dedicated tank destroyer (the Vickers a dedicated suppression platform) does not mean it should win every single 1v1 fight against all enemy vehicles (infantry), in particular when positioned improperly (not in cover) and against a much more expensive unit. If you want a guarantee your Vickers wins versus Obers, use it in cover or use line infantry to spot for it so it can fire at max range. If you want your Firefly to win versus a Tiger, use other units (snares, mines and ATGs) to prevent the Tiger from closing in so the Firefly can pick it off from long range. This is how the game works, for all units, for all factions.
If you can't understand simple game mechanics and economics, I am not surprised you struggle in matches.
I'm never one to ask for playercards but I'm getting really curious to see yours.
4 Dec 2019, 21:23 PM
#58
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
You know you just mixed and matched non doc and doc units so, if this is a free for all then....
60 range high pen TD - You have Elephant (14CP super heavy TD, might as well throw in 17 pdr)
Sturmtiger, but actually good - OST have a sturmtiger? You've a Brumbar (yes, aavre and brummbar are comparable lmao)
Satchels on infantry with hammer - Bundle nades > Heavy gammon bombs (gammons are better than nukenades, also don’t forget the commandos with nukenades you abused last time we played)
Heavy engineers with anvil - You dont mean for combat efficiency surely, if you mean repairs then ok thats 1 (no that’s 4)
Light AT vehicle to contain LV play - Erm, teller mines? Or Puma you know, as we can throw in doctrines when it helps (Puma needs BP2 so you’re shooting yourself in the foot as Ostheer if you build it. Getting a stugg is way better for a bit more fuel)
Command vehicle to boost DPS of everything around it - Command panzer says hi (dps, learn to read, also the command P4 itself is useless vs armour and 10% dr in a smalla ura isn’t worth it.)
5 man mainline inf with double LMGs - With no snares, but 5 men grens say hi with the LMG and a bren gun they picked up from a tommy squad(everyone aside from okw deops weapons, what about MG42s dropped by Grens?)
4 Dec 2019, 21:34 PM
#59
Posts: 773
Yes, I am saying that a Firefly (Vickers) should not win against a Tiger that is disproportionally more expensive (Obers) and is designed to kill vehicles (Obers: infantry). The fact that the Firefly is a dedicated tank destroyer (Vickers is a dedicated suppression platform) does not mean it should win every single fight against all enemy infantry, in particular when positioned improperly (not in cover) and against a much more expensive unit.
I'm never one to ask for playercards but I'm getting really curious to see yours.
I am saying that a Firefly should not win against a Tiger that is disproportionally more expensive and is designed to kill vehicles.
Firefly designed to kill hedges I see.
So, as its all about costs, 2 volks should be able to frontally assault a vickers and win right? With all squads being out in the open of course because I have run that test countless times and guess what happens. Vickers wins 100% of the time.
"But that's unrealistic, you'd never send 2 squads frontally at an MG!"
Look me up, feel free, it of course will or wont validate everything I say! Its the same as my name here.
4 Dec 2019, 21:37 PM
#60
Posts: 5279
Wait what? So all the butthurt about infantry killing MGs frontally that has been going on since forever
don't apply to Obers?
I'm saying that if any unit can it should be Obers given price, timing and lack of flexibility. The only other unit comparable in terms of lack of utility would probably be rangers, but they at least benifit from weapon racks. Obers brute force. That's what they do.
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