Stationary PANTHER

Amongst other things, the fact that TDs with 55 range wouldn't stand a chance against tougher German armor that is backed up by a 60 range ATG, or the fact that it's one of the trade-offs for being an expensive late game vehicle that has bad armor and low health that doesn't have any AI damage at all, or the fact that the Panther is designed to counter mediums and heavies and not also tank destroyers.

The Allied Tank Destroyer profile isn't healthy, because their high penetration and regular/high DPM means they counter every type of vehicle, but their range is not the problem.

Sweet TD stats like 640 hitpoints, 160 armor, absolutely no anti-infantry, bad mobility and turret rotation in the case of the Firefly, and being a casemate in case of the SU-85? Don't just cherry pick. They have plenty of disadvantages compared to the Panther.

Im not sure a 5 range nerf will break Allies play. 55TD will still trade well over meds and heavy calls in. They will get the first and last shot of an engagement. You cannot really flank with a Tiger or KT. 55TD still have their pen, damages, rof, abilities. You can still complement them with Allies call ins. Nothing really changes in terms of counters imo.

But yes you are right, the only tougher german armor that changes with 55TD, is the panther supported by 60ATG. Which is the point, bingo! It brings panther back into the game. Which makes most sense for where all their costs stand. Now Panther plays are too passive, nothing about the dives or making use of the durablity.

55TD still have an advantage over Panthers, and why Allies shouldnt make more active support of their 55TD with 60ATG?

Yes you are right again on 55TD HP and armor, are of med class. But their guns are superb, which is enough for where their price stand. Low popcost also helps with support. As for SU85 and FF, i did suggest making SU85 tracking cheaper, and make FF tulips cheaper. These 2 tanks already have the sight advantage even as a 55TD. As repeated, Sov and Ukf can and do have tougher armor to supplement 55TD.

Im not sure how much changes we can go with 60TD's pen and rof. There seems to be no room to go except for superficial reduction. Reducing pen% from 90% to 87% or rof ttk from 10s to 10.2s (randon figures exampe), statistically, dont change anything except on paper.

55TD seems the most logical test, without affecting units from top to bottom. It seems to make Panther more exciting for its cost, again!

I know maybe my >1000 rank hold less weight. I hope more top players put their comments on a 55TD change. Perhaps there are more than meets the eye from different views.

Just to clarify, I ignore a coaxial with max 7 dps that is completely negligible, because everyone would except for those trying to be remarkably nitpicky. The Panther's total of up to 25 AI DPS on the other hand is a significant enough factor to mention in comparisons as it can reliably be used to chase away lone squads.

May I suggested you choose your wording more carefully then because "absolutely no anti-infantry" and "negligible" are two completely different things.

In addition if the coaxial benefits (and I have not checked) from commander and the vet bonus it does not become that negligible anymore.

Panther total DPS might be close to 25 but only in an ideal scenario and if it "chasing" a "lone" squad it would be closer to 12.5 due to moving penalties.

In the end of the day if the "superiority" of the Panther comes from it's MGs, I suggest giving the FF/M36/SU-85 of one hull and one coaxial (where applicable) and rising their fuel price to 180 FU. Then Allied TD would come with the same MGs (pintle is an upgrade that cost MU) would have better gun then the Panther and the Panther would have more tenacity.

In plain words the performance of Panther's Mgs does not justify the superior in cost efficiency of allied TDs enjoy.

Firstly a jackon is not a tank. Its a dedicated tank destroyer, its not capable of doing anything else unlike the panther.

Names don't matter much. What matters is that Jackson is realatively cheap and doesn't require any repair unit. It has a turret, is very fast, and has the range of an ati tank gun. All the above combined makes it lethal and unlikely to absorb fire.

The price difference should make panther a better vehicle. Panther has better armour and more health. In reality these advantages are easily outweighted by the range and potency of Jackson's gun, and the crew. So you pay less for Jackson and get the same or even more. Panther to be fully operational needs another unit to follow it and repair. This means that you need another 200-300mp more to make it operational. Add 100+ manpower 40 fuel cost difference plus more tech required and it means USF can field another elite infantry squad plus have some manpower in a bank in the meantime, or get a bit more fuel and have another tank! It is really unbalanced.

Panther is ai capable. Panther is more durable. Panther has blitz to escape or dive, and heavy crush. But it has shorter range. And nothing like hvap.

Panther ai capability is very low plus you need to pay extra 60muni for it. Additionaly it works close range, which makes the vehicle close in putting it in danger of snares and other sources of at fire. IMO it doesn't make sense and doesn't synergise with its intended function. It is there only to somehow "hide" panther's weaknesses and allow pplayers to say it is good.

The biggest issue is that when panther is fielded there are plenty of at sources on the field which screen Jacksons. Pazookas, ptrs, snares, satchels, piats, elite bazookas/piats plus at guns, etc. The inferior range will make panther dive in all these at sources and absorb too much damage. Without crew repairs it will be out of action too long to have impact on the game. If it is unlucky and gets a crit it will be dead.

The panther is not overpriced. Its the jackson being a tad to good for its price. But i dont see that changing as long as heavies are meta, and axis do have more acces to those regardless

It is overpriced imo. If it had more anty inf cabablities and were a premium medium the price would be justified.

Its a vicious circle atm. Allies need such td,s vs inevitable heavy or superheavy unlike axis mostly, but those td,s overpreform vs medium and premium mediums. The panther and p4 feel weak because of it.

The vicious circle can be stopped. Make panther a stronger medium tank and it should be enough to make people build tier 4 for ost. The intended tech should be to build 1-2 vehicles from tier 3 and move on to tier 4. If panther could replace p4 everthing would be balanced. Panther should be similar at dealing with infantry to p4 but retain its at capabilities. Then everything would be back in place imo. Maybe some of panther's health could be nerfed.

Names don't matter much. What matters is that Jackson is realatively cheap and doesn't require any repair unit. It has a turret, is very fast, and has the range of an ati tank gun. All the above combined makes it lethal and unlikely to absorb fire.

The price difference should make panther a better vehicle. Panther has better armour and more health. In reality these advantages are easily outweighted by the range and potency of Jackson's gun, and the crew. So you pay less for Jackson and get the same or even more. Panther to be fully operational needs another unit to follow it and repair. This means that you need another 200-300mp more to make it operational. Add 100+ manpower 40 fuel cost difference plus more tech required and it means USF can field another elite infantry squad plus have some manpower in a bank in the meantime, or get a bit more fuel and have another tank! It is really unbalanced.


Panther ai capability is very low plus you need to pay extra 60muni for it. Additionaly it works close range, which makes the vehicle close in putting it in danger of snares and other sources of at fire. IMO it doesn't make sense and doesn't synergise with its intended function. It is there only to somehow "hide" panther's weaknesses and allow pplayers to say it is good.

The biggest issue is that when panther is fielded there are plenty of at sources on the field which screen Jacksons. Pazookas, ptrs, snares, satchels, piats, elite bazookas/piats plus at guns, etc. The inferior range will make panther dive in all these at sources and absorb too much damage. Without crew repairs it will be out of action too long to have impact on the game. If it is unlucky and gets a crit it will be dead.


It is overpriced imo. If it had more anty inf cabablities and were a premium medium the price would be justified.


The vicious circle can be stopped. Make panther a stronger medium tank and it should be enough to make people build tier 4 for ost. The intended tech should be to build 1-2 vehicles from tier 3 and move on to tier 4. If panther could replace p4 everthing would be balanced. Panther should be similar at dealing with infantry to p4 but retain its at capabilities. Then everything would be back in place imo. Maybe some of panther's health could be nerfed.

Names do matter a lot. It puts things into perspective. The jackson is a dedicated td. The panther is a hybred mix or medium td and a heavy.

The jackson can repair its self. With gteat risk if caught of gaurd. The panther can bounce a lot of incoming fire that isent a deficated td. A jackson cant.

When the panther hits the field axis also have at guns on the field. Also they can have a harder hitting shreck. On can cloak the other can snare it.

The panther is not overpriced. It has great things from 3 different types of units. If it becomes cheaper its stats need to be nerfed, the other way around if it becomes better its that simple.

By making the panther better in ai at say p4 or tiger level it will make both of them redundant. Then those will need buffs or changes to be relevant. The cycle wont end.
They cycle will only end when the 300+ armour KT becomes doctrinal and heavies are delayed quite a bit including panther and comet and pershing a bit as well. Then the td,s can be toned down.

The KT doesn't need to be sub 300 armour, but there needs to be an answer that isn't raw pen. Deflection damage allows dedicated TDs to deal chip damage (so volume of fire via the proper units) can scare the big cat away without negating anything in the game with an armour value below the KT. both armour and the counters need to be viable. Previously TDs were unable to overcome and thus armour was over performing, not TDs are over performing to overcome that armour. There needs to be middle ground.

The panther just needs a 0.75 on the move accuracy , its entire purpose is to chase down enemy tanks as its flat out outranged and outgunned by cheaper tank destroyers. If it gets a good flank why shouldn't it be rewarded?
It really lacks purpose.. I would take 2 stugs over a panther any day.

The KT doesn't need to be sub 300 armour, but there needs to be an answer that isn't raw pen. Deflection damage allows dedicated TDs to deal chip damage (so volume of fire via the proper units) can scare the big cat away without negating anything in the game with an armour value below the KT. both armour and the counters need to be viable. Previously TDs were unable to overcome and thus armour was over performing, not TDs are over performing to overcome that armour. There needs to be middle ground.

If that can still be implemented it would be better indeed.

The panther just needs a 0.75 on the move accuracy , its entire purpose is to chase down enemy tanks as its flat out outranged and outgunned by cheaper tank destroyers. If it gets a good flank why shouldn't it be rewarded?
It really lacks purpose.. I would take 2 stugs over a panther any day.

If it gets 0.75 moving acc one of its other many positive atributes needs a nerf or a cost increase. It in no way a bad unit atm.

Could buff blitz for the panther to allow for increased moving accuracy. Since its speed traits were nerfed it has been left underwhelming (good, but nowhere near the God tier zippy car it used to be) and then blitz will find use as an offensive ability instead of just a get out of dodge ability.

If it gets 0.75 moving acc one of its other many positive atributes needs a nerf or a cost increase. It in no way a bad unit atm.

oookay.. thats why we have the call in meta and no one goes for T4 ost... because its such a good unit.

+5range
0,75 acc

for 5 more fuel

or just nerf the damn jacksons

oookay.. thats why we have the call in meta and no one goes for T4 ost... because its such a good unit.

+5range
0,75 acc

for 5 more fuel

or just nerf the damn jacksons

I am more in line with the latter.

The tiger callin meta is because its a bigger better p4. Wich does not come much later. This is why alongside the overkill on allied td,s thanks to nondoc kt is why people think the panther is up.

I am more in line with the latter.

The tiger callin meta is because its a bigger better p4. Wich does not come much later. This is why alongside the overkill on allied td,s thanks to nondoc kt is why people think the panther is up.

Tiger call in for okw is because u have the first commander where u get a decent tank and some inf. Like 80% of all other allied commanders have this. U dont have to go for quadro volks.

For Ost u have an ok ostwind and ok stug.... so u can go heavy T3 in Tiger.

Personaly i dont like KT at all... its to slow and when it hits the field it gets hardcounterd already... by vettet At guns and even vettet at inf. Its nothing like it was in coh1 where it could be the backbone of your army .. in coh2 allied have 1001 at ability to negate the stregth of that tank. The Fuel invest is so heavy and u dont have caches.... so its even harder and u HAVE to get value out of ur Fuel.
Of course i talk only about 2vs2 AT.

Tiger call in for okw is because u have the first commander where u get a decent tank and some inf. Like 80% of all other allied commanders have this. U dont have to go for quadro volks.

For Ost u have an ok ostwind and ok stug.... so u can go heavy T3 in Tiger.

Personaly i dont like KT at all... its to slow and when it hits the field it gets hardcounterd already... by vettet At guns and even vettet at inf. Its nothing like it was in coh1 where it could be the backbone of your army .. in coh2 allied have 1001 at ability to negate the stregth of that tank. The Fuel invest is so heavy and u dont have caches.... so its even harder and u HAVE to get value out of ur Fuel.
Of course i talk only about 2vs2 AT.

1. Okw only get 1 cmmdr like that because stock they already are very strong. Axis player just act like the p4 jagdp4 and panther are up and subpar. Allies need such commanders more then okw does.

2. Again people downplaying axis units, i am gettin tired of that. An ok stug.... no mention of the p4. Ost t3 is sollid.
People think stug should be at the level of su85 ff and jackson while they face mostly lower levels off armour that allies face.

3. Like it or not the kt is the only nondoc superheavie tank. Alongside the only nondoc elite inf.
The kt used to be i win with very little micro needed to get value out of your fuel. The tiger is in many docs and is quite easely available so its an easy dicision to make. In turn forcing allies get td,s and extra at guns early rather then heavies or mediums.

1. Okw only get 1 cmmdr like that because stock they already are very strong. Axis player just act like the p4 jagdp4 and panther are up and subpar. Allies need such commanders more then okw does.

2. Again people downplaying axis units, i am gettin tired of that. An ok stug.... no mention of the p4. Ost t3 is sollid.
People think stug should be at the level of su85 ff and jackson while they face mostly lower levels off armour that allies face.

3. Like it or not the kt is the only nondoc superheavie tank. Alongside the only nondoc elite inf.
The kt used to be i win with very little micro needed to get value out of your fuel. The tiger is in many docs and is quite easely available so its an easy dicision to make. In turn forcing allies get td,s and extra at guns early rather then heavies or mediums.

first of all WTF!

1. nope its not... they against the 60TD meta. That's what we have talked abount in 1001 thread here.
U know okw get one commander and it becomes instant the meta? well ... not because there roster is so good.

2. What lower lvl's ? u said that u can fight jacksons with stugs. We have the heavy tank and TD meta .... idk where u want to put stugs.

3. so the super heavy Tank thats hits the field when there are vetted TD's and at guns.. YES there u got ur value.
Forcing? Jackons counters everthing axis get with armor. It is just too good and a know brainer not to get one. Its the easy mode .... why going for combiend arms when u can have the super TD.

1. Okw only get 1 cmmdr like that because stock they already are very strong. Axis player just act like the p4 jagdp4 and panther are up and subpar. Allies need such commanders more then okw does.

1. nope its not... they against the 60TD meta. That's what we have talked abount in 1001 thread here.
U know okw get one commander and it becomes instant the meta? well ... not because there roster is so good.

Let's be honest; it's mostly because any time OKW gets a new or adjusted commander, it's almost always wildly overpowered.

SpecOps was meta for ages because of the Commander Panther's armor/HP bonuses and insane aura (especially when it stacked (iirc) with the Ost Command P4), IR-STGs and uncounterable recon flares.

Then it was Overwatch when JLI were insanely overpowered, combined with that doc's high levels of utility (and sector strike being really strong).

Then it was Luft because Falls were incredibly overpowered with their 4x FG42s, stealth deploy, snares, nades, cloak, ambush, etc. all stacking with VA.

Now it's Grand Offensive because basically every ability is incredibly strong. You get the very efficient PFs, IR-STGs, cheap Smoke/Recon, Panzer Commander (eh...), and a Command Tiger. After the previous commanders were nerfed, this one was clearly going to become the new mainstream choice.

2. Again people downplaying axis units, i am gettin tired of that. An ok stug.... no mention of the p4. Ost t3 is sollid.
People think stug should be at the level of su85 ff and jackson while they face mostly lower levels off armour that allies face.

2. What lower lvl's ? u said that u can fight jacksons with stugs. We have the heavy tank and TD meta .... idk where u want to put stugs.

STuGs and Ostwinds are great, but Princeps is right; like every other medium in the game, the current TD-spam meta basically invalidates them fairly quickly. The Ostwind is still somewhat viable into late-game, since AI is always nice to have, but the STuG falls off the map unless you're spamming them (4+ of them).

With that said, OST T3 is still very solid, since you can leverage it to secure a win, or enough resource gain to get Panthers out before M36s - at least in 1v1 and 2v2. In the bigger team games it has a really limited useful time-window due to the much higher income rates.

3. Like it or not the kt is the only nondoc superheavie tank. Alongside the only nondoc elite inf.
The kt used to be i win with very little micro needed to get value out of your fuel. The tiger is in many docs and is quite easely available so its an easy dicision to make. In turn forcing allies get td,s and extra at guns early rather then heavies or mediums.

3. so the super heavy Tank thats hits the field when there are vetted TD's and at guns.. YES there u got ur value.
Forcing? Jackons counters everthing axis get with armor. It is just too good and a know brainer not to get one. Its the easy mode .... why going for combiend arms when u can have the super TD.

Yea, the KT isn't an "I win" button anymore; at best it's an "I want to show off how much I'm currently winning by" button, and at worst it's an "I have no idea what I'm doing" button. The current TD meta, especially for allied factions, is so strong that most will skip mediums and go straight to TDs, since they invalidate basically every vehicle Axis players have, short of Panthers and JP4s, if played well. It also means that by the time OKW has all 3 trucks and panzer auth researched, Allied players will likely have 2+ M36s/SU-85s/FFs, which will make the KT a pointless purchase. In almost every situation it's a better idea to get a few JP4s instead, or some other combination of AI and AT.




Because there's now 2 threads on this (poll and this one), I'll basically copy my post from there:
Show Spoiler

TD;DR: stop buffing meta TDs to counter even more meta TDs; nerf them all to bring back interesting medium tank play.

Yes stop buffing and power creep.

Come support my range reduction!

60td to 55td
70td to 60td.

Just seems so logical..

Yes stop buffing and power creep.

Come support my range reduction!

60td to 55td
70td to 60td.

Just seems so logical..

It not logical imo. Td s have only 1 thing they do and need to do it well. Having more range is a requierement for their job. They are helpless on their own.

It not logical imo. Td s have only 1 thing they do and need to do it well. Having more range is a requierement for their job. They are helpless on their own.

He won't understand that, because playing axis only, he doesn't see these problems with panther.

It not logical imo. Td s have only 1 thing they do and need to do it well. Having more range is a requierement for their job. They are helpless on their own.

55 is still more than 50/45...
The +5 range advantage is on top of other sweet td stats.
I just cant see losing 5 range makes them halpless..
Its like some saying u dont dive with just panther, you need to cover it with ATg & infantry. Why should allies td sit comfortably at 60 alone?

Bump for more pro players comment. We need to test it for sure

55 is still more than 50/45...
The +5 range advantage is on top of other sweet td stats.
I just cant see losing 5 range makes them halpless..
Its like some saying u dont dive with just panther, you need to cover it with ATg & infantry. Why should allies td sit comfortably at 60 alone?

Bump for more pro players comment. We need to test it for sure

Sweet td stats such as 920 hp 260 armour actual ai dps medium tank speed and rotation and heavy crush? All things allied td,s dont have.

All td,s have over panther is price and range. The only thing that is needed adding deflection damahe to dedicated td,s (wich the panther is not) and lower their pen.