As seen in the latest tournament Super heavy Tanks are dominating the meta. There has been allot of post about their CP and I was actually surprised to see that some members of the MOD are not yet convinced that they come too early.
So this a suggestion for a redesign that might be implement regardless of timing changes.
Imo it should be worth testing lowering the base stat of these units but increase their vet bonuses.
In other words the "new" Super heavies will be of lower power level at vet 0 but of equal or even higher at Vet 3.
The suggestion aim at reducing the shock value of these unit while increase the skill for using them.
Bonus could include armor bonus for each vet level, penetration, AOE, ROF, so that these units become increasing better is smooth way.
Redesigning Super heavy Tanks
20 Nov 2019, 16:36 PM
#1
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
20 Nov 2019, 16:48 PM
#2
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
Increase armour by like 20% and nerf health by like 40%. That way getting close to AT guns and getting flanked will be lethal and promote proper counter-play, promoting a dynamic where the attacking player has to get close to the heavy or flank, while the heavy player wants to keep distance and secure the flanks.
20 Nov 2019, 21:44 PM
#3
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Increase armour by like 20% and nerf health by like 40%. That way getting close to AT guns and getting flanked will be lethal and promote proper counter-play, promoting a dynamic where the attacking player has to get close to the heavy or flank, while the heavy player wants to keep distance and secure the flanks.
The suggestion for the vet overhaul is separate issue from your suggestion and both can take place.
On the other hand your suggestions would be make the fight more RNG and would be a massive nerf to Tiger while the IS-2 would be less effected.
Even with 360 armor the Tiger would still be penetrated reliably by Allied TDs while with 450 armor
IS-2 would had a good chance to bounce everything up to Pak88/Ele/JT
20 Nov 2019, 23:18 PM
#4
Posts: 5279
I like the idea of vet gating more stats on heavy armour assuming it's coupled with a cost decrease and more importantly a pop decrease. Since the power would be earned they would need to supported which is a great change
#stalinwept
20 Nov 2019, 23:20 PM
#5
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
I think deflection damage would go a long way in aiding tank combat overall instead of 100% or 0% damage.
20 Nov 2019, 23:40 PM
#6
Posts: 5279
I think deflection damage would go a long way in aiding tank combat overall instead of 100% or 0% damage.
That's something I couldn't agree more with
#stalinwept
20 Nov 2019, 23:56 PM
#7
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I think deflection damage would go a long way in aiding tank combat overall instead of 100% or 0% damage.
This is a bit of the vet suggestions but I would rather skeptical of adding deflection damage to all AT weapons "spaming" T-70 to counter KT should not be a viable tactic.
I guess one could add some deflection to some weapon or someone could add chance of a deflection damage on some weapons as a ratio to penetration/armor.
So it would break down a bit like this:
Critical hit full damage
Hit but no penetration, re-roll for a deflection damage equal to weapon damage*penetration/armor
Ricochet no damage
21 Nov 2019, 00:04 AM
#8
Posts: 5279
This is a bit of the vet suggestions but I would rather skeptical of adding deflection damage to all AT weapons "spaming" T-70 to counter KT should not be a viable tactic.
I guess one could add some deflection to some weapon or someone could add chance of a deflection damage on some weapons as a ratio to penetration/armor.
So it would break down a bit like this:
Critical hit full damage
Hit but no penetration, re-roll for a deflection damage equal to weapon damage*penetration/armor
Ricochet no damage
It would necessarily be for ALL weapons (the deflection damage) just the important ones. Imo lights and generalist mediums wouldn't have any deflection damage for the reasons you listed. Even premium mediums below panther I wouldn't (usf HVAP being an outlier) but at guns, medium TDs (no for su76 or puma) hand at and heavies could all do deflection damage
Also I suggested something like a more refined pen system a ways back
Basicly if it didn't meet a certain % it would deal no damage (normal medium vs panther front for example) but if the pen greatly exceeded the armour value it would do bonus damage (is-2 vs Kuble kinda thing) granted the OHK in the game have been greatly reduced so idk if the latter is really a good direction anymore.
#stalinwept
21 Nov 2019, 01:33 AM
#9
Posts: 999 | Subs: 1
interesting suggestion for sure, but i think a moderate increase in fuel cost (15-20%) would be all that is needed to bring heavies back in line again.
||| ScatterThis! - Tank AI calculation made easy ||| CoH2 Pen Calc - Tank vs tank... who wins against who and by what margin? |||
21 Nov 2019, 07:19 AM
#10
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
interesting suggestion for sure, but i think a moderate increase in fuel cost (15-20%) would be all that is needed to bring heavies back in line again.
Problem with "economy" solution is that the they have different impact across game modes.
Another issue is that allied TDs get penetration vet bonuses and become increasingly better vs super heavies. If the vet bonuses included armor bonuses the armor/penetration ratio could be less effected by vet level.
21 Nov 2019, 07:44 AM
#11
Posts: 1794
Imo no major changes to super heavy but a fuel cost increase. Make fuel points more tactical battle.
Only changes imo, 60td to 55td. 70td to 60td
Jp4 remain 60td if its other stats remain since rak is 55td.
At least 60AT guns are like AT guns, able to keep tanks on their toes.
At least axis t3t4 can do something more without getting zone out by hard counters
Only changes imo, 60td to 55td. 70td to 60td
Jp4 remain 60td if its other stats remain since rak is 55td.
At least 60AT guns are like AT guns, able to keep tanks on their toes.
At least axis t3t4 can do something more without getting zone out by hard counters
21 Nov 2019, 12:44 PM
#12
Posts: 1289
Imo no major changes to super heavy but a fuel cost increase. Make fuel points more tactical battle.
Only changes imo, 60td to 55td. 70td to 60td
Jp4 remain 60td if its other stats remain since rak is 55td.
At least 60AT guns are like AT guns, able to keep tanks on their toes.
At least axis t3t4 can do something more without getting zone out by hard counters
60 range td stay 60 range. The kt goes to doctrines maybe buff it if needed, no more need to balance vs 300+ armour for stock td,s. Pen of 60 range td,s goes down. P4 and p5 doctrinal heavies such as the tiger also get some breathingroom and are less hard countered. At the same time delay super heavy tanks substationaly. Heavies and panthers could be a bit delayed as well imo.
21 Nov 2019, 16:04 PM
#13
Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2
I'm sorry but could you define a "super heavy"?
Are the Elefant, JT, ISU-152, KV2 and Sturmtiger super heavies or something?
Or do that Tiger, KT, KV-1 and IS2 count as well?
Cause a lot of people also count the Panther as a heavy tank while the game says it's a medium one and I'm just getting confused by what people mean exactly.
Are the Elefant, JT, ISU-152, KV2 and Sturmtiger super heavies or something?
Or do that Tiger, KT, KV-1 and IS2 count as well?
Cause a lot of people also count the Panther as a heavy tank while the game says it's a medium one and I'm just getting confused by what people mean exactly.
21 Nov 2019, 16:27 PM
#14
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
I'm sorry but could you define a "super heavy"?
Are the Elefant, JT, ISU-152, KV2 and Sturmtiger super heavies or something?
Or do that Tiger, KT, KV-1 and IS2 count as well?
Cause a lot of people also count the Panther as a heavy tank while the game says it's a medium one and I'm just getting confused by what people mean exactly.
#JustVipperThings
21 Nov 2019, 16:45 PM
#15
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I'm sorry but could you define a "super heavy"?
Are the Elefant, JT, ISU-152, KV2 and Sturmtiger super heavies or something?
Or do that Tiger, KT, KV-1 and IS2 count as well?
Cause a lot of people also count the Panther as a heavy tank while the game says it's a medium one and I'm just getting confused by what people mean exactly.
Super heavy vehicles is the term used by Relic to describe late vehicles limited to 1. (yes valentine and command PzIV does not count).
There are different type of Super heavy vehicles like:
Tanks as main battle tank
Assault guns
Tank destroyers
The suggestion is mostly about super heavy Tanks (Pershing, Tiger, IS-2, KV-2 and maybe KT, C. Panther, Churchill) but I would personally implement to heavy Tanks like: KV-1, KV-2 and Churchill since these units are imo problematic also.
21 Nov 2019, 17:31 PM
#16
Posts: 658
I think deflection damage would go a long way in aiding tank combat overall instead of 100% or 0% damage.
Agree 1000%
21 Nov 2019, 18:14 PM
#17
Posts: 810
redesign redesign redesign
rework rework rework rework
RUIN RUIN RUIN RUIN
what's next?
rework rework rework rework
RUIN RUIN RUIN RUIN
what's next?
21 Nov 2019, 18:32 PM
#19
Posts: 810
Tiger's AI is too bad, is-2's shot is too bad..blablabla....
everyone's whining about it.
So the Mode team solved all this whining without thinking
And now you guys want to nerf them again
Are you guys idiots?
Didn't the Mode team know this meta was coming?
If you nerf a super heavy tank, you have to nerf TD and fix all tank balances
Are you smart enough to fix all that?
Is the Mode team smart?
No, it's not
Just nerf Tiger and IS-2's cannon accuracy
Thats it
no need more
If you try to fix something, think about what will happen next.
Don't touch anything without thinking
everyone's whining about it.
So the Mode team solved all this whining without thinking
And now you guys want to nerf them again
Are you guys idiots?
Didn't the Mode team know this meta was coming?
If you nerf a super heavy tank, you have to nerf TD and fix all tank balances
Are you smart enough to fix all that?
Is the Mode team smart?
No, it's not
Just nerf Tiger and IS-2's cannon accuracy
Thats it
no need more
If you try to fix something, think about what will happen next.
Don't touch anything without thinking
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