On the M4A3E8

Ez8 isn't supposed to be very good vs inf. It's mainly a brawler AT tank with 200+ armor and 800 health and a gun that always pen all ost mediums basically 100%. A step up from the T34/85 in every way except inf killing power.

720hp*
70% pen on OKW P4, OST vetted P4*
91% pen on unvetted OST P4*

So it's a lousy version of the Panther?
Could use a better reload time if nothing else.

EDIT: And there is 0 reason why the MG upgrade should be more expensive than on literally any other Sherman tank.

Page 2 Edit for people who just ignore Page 1:
M4A3E8 will take 19 seconds longer to kill a volks squad than P4
16 seconds longer than a T-34/76
and be only between 9-5 seconds faster in killing said squad than a Panther with and without, respectively, the MG upgrade.
Versus a P4 in a tank battle the trade only slimly favors the M4A3E8 with a sliver of health remaining.

720hp*
70% pen on OKW P4, OST vetted P4*
91% pen on unvetted OST P4*

So it's a lousy version of the Panther?
Could use a better reload time if nothing else.

EDIT: And there is 0 reason why the MG upgrade should be more expensive than on literally any other Sherman tank.

I just said "basically 100% pen ost medium" 91% is damn good. Yes it is a lousy version of the panther for 140 F. It's basically a tank that hardcounters all mediums including the OKW p4.

I just said "basically 100% pen ost medium" 91% is damn good. Yes it is a lousy version of the panther for 140 F. It's basically a tank that hardcounters all mediums including the OKW p4.

Go look at page 1 again and tell me that is the performance of a hard-counter unit.

If that doesn't convince you that you're mistaken, go somewhere else. This isn't a panther and it's not a TD, and neither is it anywhere close to the capability of either in the AT department.

If it was, maybe that would excuse the terrible AI, sure.

Hell, if you increased the price and mirrored panther Stats maybe this thing might actually have a place.

The difference in reload speed is actually between 1.3 and 0.7 iirc, and your armor stat is backwards as the OKW P4 has 234 armor compared to E8 215, and 90 rear armor compared to E8 95.

Yea, just noticed I flipped the front armor, it should be -19 front +15 rear (P4 has 80 rear, vs 95 for the E8). As for the reload, I'm taking the average of the min/max, and then using the difference between them.

Further, with all due respect for your dilligence in providing a stat sheet, the P4 in tests has remarkably better AI performance, a cheaper MG upgrade, and on the topic of factional bonuses, an ability that grants it both better accuracy and mobility (combat blitz).

Yes, like I said, the P4 is better against infantry; that's not a surprise when looking at the stats.

As for the MG upgrade price, +70muni is pretty much standard for USF. It's 70muni on the 105mm Bulldozer, M4A3, and the E8. The exception is the M4A3(76), which is 60muni for some reason (and the hotkey changes from V to M).

Combat blitz is a fair point, but it's also important to note that the E8 gets non-doc, vet0 smoke as well.

The trade seems to be 80 hp and marginally better alpha pen, but worse DPS against most vehicle or infantry targets.

+80hp, +60%/43%/41% pen, +50% moving accuracy, in exchange for -14.5% DPS against vehicles (ignoring the pen differences).

Further, with all due respect for your dilligence in providing a stat sheet, the P4 in tests has remarkably better AI performance, a cheaper MG upgrade, and on the topic of factional bonuses, an ability that grants it both better accuracy and mobility (combat blitz).

A single round of testing is not an accurate yardstick for comparing tanks, and your thread is not going to go far if you're going to constantly deflect to "the tests!".

Historically, 76mm shermans were actually left behind in England for the invasion of France. The 75mm was doing a good enough job against tanks, but it's turret had substantially better HE performance. It wasn't until the newer models of german tanks started showing up that US armor realized that "oh, we're going to need better AT guns on our shermans!".

You see the same dynamic in the game. Vanilla sherman is good enough vs a fresh OST p4, but struggles with upgraded armor p4s. E8 also preforms significantly better than the vanilla sherman against panthers and tigers, but won't solo them.

Rifle company isn't in the meta because heavy cavalry does everything it does and more. If you want to see more doctrine variety in USF then heavy cav shouldn't be some omni-doctrine offering the best in infantry via the rangers, smoke, sandbags, and mines, and also the best in armor via pershing and super zook rangers.

Not to mention the E8 is in arguably the worst USF commander, with most of its abilities being medicore or just useless.

Yea, just noticed I flipped the front armor, it should be -19 front +15 rear (P4 has 80 rear, vs 95 for the E8). As for the reload, I'm taking the average of the min/max, and then using the difference between them.



Yes, like I said, the P4 is better against infantry; that's not a surprise when looking at the stats.

As for the MG upgrade price, +70muni is pretty much standard for USF. It's 70muni on the 105mm Bulldozer, M4A3, and the E8. The exception is the M4A3(76), which is 60muni for some reason (and the hotkey changes from V to M).

Combat blitz is a fair point, but it's also important to note that the E8 gets non-doc, vet0 smoke as well.



+80hp, +60%/43%/41% pen, +50% moving accuracy, in exchange for -14.5% DPS against vehicles (ignoring the pen differences).

I absolutely could have sworn the M4A3 MG was 60muni, but it turns out you are right. I don't know what I was thinking of, maybe it was the 76mm like you say.

I know for a fact, however, that the rear armor of the Panzer IV J in live right now is 90, not 80. I checked in the attribute editor.

Also, does anyone know why the scatter on the M4A3E8's gun was nerfed?

Go look at page 1 again and tell me that is the performance of a hard-counter unit.

If that doesn't convince you that you're mistaken, go somewhere else. This isn't a panther and it's not a TD, and neither is it anywhere close to the capability of either in the AT department.

If it was, maybe that would excuse the terrible AI, sure.

Hell, if you increased the price and mirrored panther Stats maybe this thing might actually have a place.

You did a test once. And EZ8 still won. P4 pens EZ8 around 50-60% of the time 5 penetrating shots are needed, while EZ8 pens 70-91% and 4 penetrating shots are needed. EZ8 has 0.75 moving accuracy as well. I believe P4 has a slightly higher RoF. These are significant advantages that make EZ8 a hardcounter.

A single round of testing is not an accurate yardstick for comparing tanks, and your thread is not going to go far if you're going to constantly deflect to "the tests!".

Historically, 76mm shermans were actually left behind in England for the invasion of France. The 75mm was doing a good enough job against tanks, but it's turret had substantially better HE performance. It wasn't until the newer models of german tanks started showing up that US armor realized that "oh, we're going to need better AT guns on our shermans!".

You see the same dynamic in the game. Vanilla sherman is good enough vs a fresh OST p4, but struggles with upgraded armor p4s. E8 also preforms significantly better than the vanilla sherman against panthers and tigers, but won't solo them.

Rifle company isn't in the meta because heavy cavalry does everything it does and more. If you want to see more doctrine variety in USF then heavy cav shouldn't be some omni-doctrine offering the best in infantry via the rangers, smoke, sandbags, and mines, and also the best in armor via pershing and super zook rangers.

While I agree Heavy Cav is omnipotent, it isn't far removed from your average tiger commander for Ostheer, for example. It just has doctrinal elite infantry instead of nondoc.

E8 is signifigantly better at getting a single lucky hit in on a heavier tank than a P4, sure. Is it worth 30 extra fuel and the drop in AI firepower to be marginally less helpless versus a Panther? On the historical 76mm front; the 76MM Sherman has not only (MUCH) better rate of fire but also better AI profile for the individual shells. It's no P4 or M4A3, but it's a long shot better than the M4A3E8, while also having the APCR shell with better penetration and reload time than the M4A3E8, and all of this is without a power creep series of buffs towards it. (The unit is so untouched it retains the borderline absurdly overpowered ROF from its Soviet days, which couples nicely with vet and radio net)

Not to mention the E8 is in arguably the worst USF commander, with most of its abilities being medicore or just useless.

The worst USF commander is Infantry. Rifle Company is actually pretty good now imo, though I agree it is overshadowed by Heavy Cav, in great deal due to the heavy tank buffs.

You did a test once. And EZ8 still won. P4 pens EZ8 around 50-60% of the time 5 penetrating shots are needed, while EZ8 pens 70-91% and 4 penetrating shots are needed. EZ8 has 0.75 moving accuracy as well. I believe P4 has a slightly higher RoF. These are significant advantages that make EZ8 a hardcounter.

If this is your definition of hard counter, you may as well say the P4 is a hard counter to the M4A3 or T-34/76.

Victory against a P4 is as much RNG as it would be for the P4 to beat the E8. It is hardly decisive and hardly a "hard counter". This would be more along the lines of Panther vs M4A3, or Panther versus M4A3E8 for that matter.




I'll do a whole 'nother series of tests if this is not convincing to you people. If I can figure out how to record on this machine, even produce video.

If this is your definition of hard counter, you may as well say the P4 is a hard counter to the M4A3 or T-34/76.

Victory against a P4 is as much RNG as it would be for the P4 to beat the E8. It is hardly decisive and hardly a "hard counter". This would be more along the lines of Panther vs M4A3, or Panther versus M4A3E8 for that matter.

I think P4 is a hard counter vs T34/76, p4 would win 9 out of 10 easily. EZ8 would win 9 of 10 vs ost p4 and 8 of 10 vs okw p4.

Do a test. My definition of hardcounter would be 9 of 10 wins

While I agree Heavy Cav is omnipotent, it isn't far removed from your average tiger commander for Ostheer, for example. It just has doctrinal elite infantry instead of nondoc.

E8 is signifigantly better at getting a single lucky hit in on a heavier tank than a P4, sure. Is it worth 30 extra fuel and the drop in AI firepower to be marginally less helpless versus a Panther? On the historical 76mm front; the 76MM Sherman has not only (MUCH) better rate of fire but also better AI profile for the individual shells. It's no P4 or M4A3, but it's a long shot better than the M4A3E8, while also having the APCR shell with better penetration and reload time than the M4A3E8, and all of this is without a power creep series of buffs towards it. (The unit is so untouched it retains the borderline absurdly overpowered ROF from its Soviet days, which couples nicely with vet and radio net)



The worst USF commander is Infantry. Rifle Company is actually pretty good now imo, though I agree it is overshadowed by Heavy Cav, in great deal due to the heavy tank buffs.



If this is your definition of hard counter, you may as well say the P4 is a hard counter to the M4A3 or T-34/76.

Victory against a P4 is as much RNG as it would be for the P4 to beat the E8. It is hardly decisive and hardly a "hard counter". This would be more along the lines of Panther vs M4A3, or Panther versus M4A3E8 for that matter.




I'll do a whole 'nother series of tests if this is not convincing to you people. If I can figure out how to record on this machine, even produce video.

IMO Infantry pretty good in teamgames sure it isnt good in 1v1 i agree but its main strength is team games(like many commanders) with the priest.

Non meta doesn't mean weak. There will NEVER be a place for an AT medium tank as long as the absolute undesputed king of TDs is in a stock position. The only way to make an AT tank worth it is to make it also have great AI which means it makes it costly and that's not the design of the faction.

The E8 should be more expensive and made into more of a premium fighting machine. What's the point of picking a doctrine for the current iteration really? Right now it's just stuck in a weird middle ground after its main gun had its nuts cut off vs infantry.

Up the fuel by 25 and buff penetration and RoF. If it gets into brawling range with panthers it should be able to pen frontally and duel reliably.

Now that would give the unit some flavor, something Axis would need to fight at range instead of treating it like another medium to be bullied.

Soviet players like myself WISH they had something as good as the M4a3e8 for 10 more fuel than the T-34/85. Non doc smoke, superior armor, superior penetration, AA capability, costless self repair, good on the move AT performance, and still 5 shot HP total though 80 less than the 85, with admittedly inferior AI performance all for a handful of mp and 10 fuel.

Further, with all due respect for your dilligence in providing a stat sheet, the P4 in tests has remarkably better AI performance

Two tests prove absolutely nothing, because of how high the influence of RNG is.

It either needs decent anti inantry capabilities or be upscaled like ostwind: increase its price and buff stats closer to comet level. Right now its pointless.

Go look at page 1 again and tell me that is the performance of a hard-counter unit.

If that doesn't convince you that you're mistaken, go somewhere else. This isn't a panther and it's not a TD, and neither is it anywhere close to the capability of either in the AT department.

If it was, maybe that would excuse the terrible AI, sure.

Hell, if you increased the price and mirrored panther Stats maybe this thing might actually have a place.

1 time test < actual math , u Simply got unlucky , p4 has around 50% chance to pen Vs 70% of the e8

...
Also, does anyone know why the scatter on the M4A3E8's gun was nerfed?

The unit was bugged and had no scatter at all on the move penalty, it still has less than anything else.

Saying the Easy Eight has bad AI is just plain false.

It's got the exact same AoE distance as the standard Sherman shells, the Comet and the Cromwell. And that AoE profile is comparable to the P4's: a bit narrower but a bit taller.

And its reload disadvantage over the stock Sherman is a whole 0.6 seconds.



You're making the same mistake everyone who compares USF doctrinal tanks make: you're taking the Sherman HE shells (which double its blast radius) as standard.

By the standards of any other faction, the Easy Eight is a good unit. It's a 720 HP, decent armour tank with standard medium tank AoE, a pintle mount, high moving accuracy and StuG penetration.

1 75mm sherman + 1 jackson >>>>>>>>>> 2 Ez8