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120mm mortars underperform!

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blvckdream
27 Oct 2019, 14:46 PM
#41
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 12:41 PMmrgame2
Stop trying to buff allies unit, they are mostly in good spot already. The 120mm should not get pop or resource reduction imo. Vipper mentioned what i wanted to say about the 1 man retreat too. The 120mm is where it is now, because it is good already, good to use if needed to explosive damage.

It will be a nightmare in 4v4 if this unit get spam when it becomes cheaper and more survivable.


If it's in a good spot as you say why is it virtually never used. The only time I see the 120mm mortar in my games is if I am matched up against low-rank noobs that have no idea what they are actually doing. I have given it a few chances in the last weeks because it is a unit that in theory can be helpful against static Wehrmacht players but it's not even a better option than the stock mortar. So why bother with the insane pop cap and cost?

How many times have you seen this unit used in 1v1 or 2v2 btw? Just curious.
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Vipper
27 Oct 2019, 14:55 PM
#42
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In numbers pm-82 vs Hm-38:
Autofire
ROF: 11.25 VS 13.02
AOE according to cruzz 17.43 vs 31.78
Range 80 vs 100

Barrage:
ROF: 6.95 VS 8.4
AOE according to cruzz 23.66 vs 40.42
Range 80 vs 100

:)
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Mr Carmine
27 Oct 2019, 15:02 PM
#43
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Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 12:41 PMmrgame2
Stop trying to buff allies unit, they are mostly in good spot already. The 120mm should not get pop or resource reduction imo. Vipper mentioned what i wanted to say about the 1 man retreat too. The 120mm is where it is now, because it is good already, good to use if needed to explosive damage.

It will be a nightmare in 4v4 if this unit get spam when it becomes cheaper and more survivable.


Just out of curiosity do you feel any allied units at all need buffs?
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mrgame2
27 Oct 2019, 15:08 PM
#44
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Posts: 1794

I dont see it use in 2v2 often. When it got used, it is probably by a team with predefined cheese strat. Hence any buff it gets in surivability and costs is going to intro cheese in 1v1 or even 2v2. Unless you are ok to trade its explosive damage and range for other buffs.
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JibberJabberJobber
27 Oct 2019, 15:09 PM
#45
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Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 14:55 PMVipper
In numbers pm-82 vs Hm-38:
Autofire
ROF: 11.25 VS 13.02
AOE according to cruzz 17.43 vs 31.78
Range 80 vs 100

Barrage:
ROF: 6.95 VS 8.4
AOE according to cruzz 23.66 vs 40.42
Range 80 vs 100



Don't forget the long setup times and long ready aim time for the 120mm, it makes it quite bad when autofiring (lots of repositioning) compared to the swift 82mm.
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Katitof
27 Oct 2019, 15:29 PM
#46
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 14:55 PMVipper
In numbers pm-82 vs Hm-38:
Autofire
ROF: 11.25 VS 13.02
AOE according to cruzz 17.43 vs 31.78
Range 80 vs 100

Barrage:
ROF: 6.95 VS 8.4
AOE according to cruzz 23.66 vs 40.42
Range 80 vs 100


Last time I've checked, they didn't had identical scatter, so why aren't you including it on the list of differences?
Scatter is single most important stat for any indirect weapon.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Vipper
27 Oct 2019, 15:41 PM
#47
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 15:29 PMKatitof

Last time I've checked, they didn't had identical scatter, so why aren't you including it on the list of differences?

Feel free to post any and all stat that are relevant in your opinion.


jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 15:29 PMKatitof

Scatter is single most important stat for any indirect weapon.

Funny of you to say that since the mortars are indirect fire weapon the according to you "if it can scatter its ballistic" and thus mortars should be ballistic weapons.



And no scatter is not the "single most important" stat for any indirect weapon. What is important is the AOE/scatter ratio that in a way defines accuracy for indirect fire weapons.

:)
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JibberJabberJobber
27 Oct 2019, 15:45 PM
#48
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Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 15:29 PMKatitof

Last time I've checked, they didn't had identical scatter, so why aren't you including it on the list of differences?
Scatter is single most important stat for any indirect weapon.


Scatter is factored in in the "AoE (score) according to cruzz" part. Otherwise there wouldn't be a difference between autofire and barrage AoE score.
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Vipper
27 Oct 2019, 15:48 PM
#49
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 15:09 PMJibberJabberJobber


Don't forget the long setup times and long ready aim time for the 120mm, it makes it quite bad when autofiring (lots of repositioning) compared to the swift 82mm.


well I guess that is part of the reason why 120mm is good vs buildings and garrison and not so good vs moving targets. I guess that one would be able to get more out of the weapon by just canceling auto fire and using only barrage with 120mm.

On the other hand the number I have provided are ROF not just reload and should include all preparation time.

Set up time should probably effect the mortar if trying to fire a target outside its cone of fire which is actually quite big.
:)
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DonnieChan
27 Oct 2019, 15:53 PM
#50
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Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1

good, they have been OP long enough
http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561197983982810
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blancat
27 Oct 2019, 17:10 PM
#51
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Posts: 810

u should Change your name to stalin
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Raviloli
27 Oct 2019, 17:56 PM
#52
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Posts: 72

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 15:08 PMmrgame2
I dont see it use in 2v2 often. When it got used, it is probably by a team with predefined cheese strat. Hence any buff it gets in surivability and costs is going to intro cheese in 1v1 or even 2v2. Unless you are ok to trade its explosive damage and range for other buffs.


If you specifically need a cheese strat to viably use that unit, doesn't that kind of prove that said unit is UP?
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elchino7
27 Oct 2019, 18:39 PM
#53
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Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 14:55 PMVipper
snip


Do you know what the AoE number on the graph represents? Average damage done based on total AoE?

I never used it cause no one knows exactly what it is.



My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.

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Vipper
27 Oct 2019, 18:43 PM
#54
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Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 18:39 PMelchino7


Do you know what the AoE number on the graph represents? Average damage done based on total AoE?

I never used it cause no one knows exactly what it is.

Unfortunately no, I have not seen any explanation from Cruzz and it rather hard to guess.

Given thou that the number increases with lower scatter values it seem that takes that into account also...

Maybe average damage divided by average scatter area?

Imo would have to find the ratio of scatter area and AOE if one wanted to express accuracy for indirect fire weapons, so maybe that is waht Cruzz has done.
:)
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Support Sapper
27 Oct 2019, 18:53 PM
#55
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Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 12:41 PMmrgame2
Stop trying to buff allies unit, they are mostly in good spot already.


As long as you stop to bring up ost's units that "underperform".
My mod with a bunch of new stuffs

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Ritter
27 Oct 2019, 18:56 PM
#56
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Posts: 255

Permanently Banned
Who can fix this unit? And when?
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mrgame2
27 Oct 2019, 19:14 PM
#57
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 17:56 PMRaviloli


If you specifically need a cheese strat to viably use that unit, doesn't that kind of prove that said unit is UP?


Nope not this way. Its a situational unit with strong situational strengths, buffing it into more generalised unit may become another Jackson, unplayable in 4v4, too cheap in 2v2 1v1.


I played 2v2 where one sov just transition midway into 120mm, dushka, su85 and reinforce ht. Totally lock out a sector. Dushka with its high mobility gets to cap and defend. Su86 disable any AI tanks to clear dushka, and the 120mm to kill any ATG or capping infantry.

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elchino7
27 Oct 2019, 19:19 PM
#58
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Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 18:43 PMVipper

Unfortunately no, I have not seen any explanation from Cruzz and it rather hard to guess.

Given thou that the number increases with lower scatter values it seem that takes that into account also...

Maybe average damage divided by average scatter area?

Imo would have to find the ratio of scatter area and AOE if one wanted to express accuracy for indirect fire weapons, so maybe that is waht Cruzz has done.


This is why i find it pretty bad as a metric to reference, when we don't even know exactly how it is calculated.

IMO, it brings more confusion to the discussion than rather listing scatter, AoE and RoF in separate ways.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.

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Raviloli
27 Oct 2019, 23:02 PM
#59
avatar of Raviloli

Posts: 72

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 19:14 PMmrgame2

I played 2v2 where one sov just transition midway into 120mm, dushka, su85 and reinforce ht. Totally lock out a sector. Dushka with its high mobility gets to cap and defend. Su86 disable any AI tanks to clear dushka, and the 120mm to kill any ATG or capping infantry.



And you couldn't outflank one dushka that had basically no infantry support? even though the dushka has one of the narrowest cones of fire in the game? No wonder you lose Panthers to AECs, likewise, a single SU-85 with no infantry to snare for it means free real estate, just flank the bloody thing, it's turretless.

"oh, but he does have infantry, and I just haven't bothered to mention them!" Well, then he's using combined arms, and you apparently are not. Zone the 120mm out, it'll lose vs any other mortar in the game, so just duel it into submission. I've already mentioned the Dushka's narrow cone of fire. (oh by the way, you're getting your ass kicked by an off-meta commander if he has both of those, good job.) And actually try using your entire infantry force to attack him, but I don't mean blob and A-move in front of his MG. Overwhelm him with micro, he's on the defensive, it's only natural he'll have the advantage.
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Acidfreak
27 Oct 2019, 23:34 PM
#60
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Posts: 281

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 23:02 PMRaviloli


And you couldn't outflank one dushka that had basically no infantry support? even though the dushka has one of the narrowest cones of fire in the game? No wonder you lose Panthers to AECs, likewise, a single SU-85 with no infantry to snare for it means free real estate, just flank the bloody thing, it's turretless.

"oh, but he does have infantry, and I just haven't bothered to mention them!" Well, then he's using combined arms, and you apparently are not. Zone the 120mm out, it'll lose vs any other mortar in the game, so just duel it into submission. I've already mentioned the Dushka's narrow cone of fire. (oh by the way, you're getting your ass kicked by an off-meta commander if he has both of those, good job.) And actually try using your entire infantry force to attack him, but I don't mean blob and A-move in front of his MG. Overwhelm him with micro, he's on the defensive, it's only natural he'll have the advantage.


You are wasting your time trying to put some sense.
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