Soviet infantry reworked

So ever since our beloved conscripts don't stand a single chance against LMG Grens, I think Relic should reconsider the basic Soviet infantry.
Now, conscripts are only usefull because of their molotovs and AT nades. Compared to Grens, who are much more of an all round unit because of the upgrades ( LMG, Jaeger package etc...) they feel just useless.
In my humble opinion, either Guards or Shocks should be non doctrinal. This way, Soviet players aren't restricted to a certain commander when they are faced with Gren/Pgren spam.Soviets had some real anti infantry units besides the Stravniky, I'm thinking of Baltic sea Marines or Close Quarter Combat squads (like the ones being used in Stalingrad) so it would be great for the Soviet player to call in one of these just to gain the upper hand rather than barely hanging on in the infantry departement. Stronger/Elite Soviet infantry can force the Ostheer player to actually build a Brümmbar considering this unit( and Ostheer T4 overall) is barely used apart from a rare Panther.

note : I'm mostly play skirmishes against my friends and I'm not a big multiplayer fan but as I play, I feel the need for stronger Soviet infantry so please don't be biased because I don't play MP.

This is a guess, but I think guard squads were originally supposed to be a t1 unit and somewhere in development penal battalions got placed into t1 and guards were moved to doctrines.

Long story short, penal battalions are supposed to be the unit that fights german infantry head on in this game. It makes little sense from a historical standpoint, but there it is.

I'm one of the few people who is of the mind that penal battalions (from a gameplay standpoint) do what they are supposed to do. With the flamethrower upgrade, they can 1v1 any German squad.

Also worth noting: Almost every single doctrine has either guards or shock troops.

Long story short, penal battalions are supposed to be the unit that fights german infantry head on in this game. It makes little sense from a historical standpoint, but there it is.

Penal troops were some of the best and fiercest infantry Soviet Union had (particularly in early years of war)

The picture everyone seems to have are of crying cowardly deserters who were made to fight.
This is thanks to Western cold war propaganda and post war Communist propaganda.

In reality, Penal squads were composed of criminals, political prisoners and tough people who weren't shiny example of communist idea of citizen. Still extremely partriotic, when it comes to fighting invaders.

Tho, no army wants to turn to prisoners and criminals, when it comes to who is better fighter between them and conscript peasants, you decide.

Even tho being penal squads, they received extraordinary number of medals (considering that no one wanted to acknowledge or recognize their efforts, for obvious reasons)

Just wanted to say that, from historical view, there is nothing wrong with Penals being elite Soviet inf. After all, they were spearheading attacks and did some extraordinary things during the course of the war.

This is a guess, but I think guard squads were originally supposed to be a t1 unit and somewhere in development penal battalions got placed into t1 and guards were moved to doctrines.

Long story short, penal battalions are supposed to be the unit that fights german infantry head on in this game. It makes little sense from a historical standpoint, but there it is.

I'm one of the few people who is of the mind that penal battalions (from a gameplay standpoint) do what they are supposed to do. With the flamethrower upgrade, they can 1v1 any German squad.

Also worth noting: Almost every single doctrine has either guards or shock troops.

I like using Penals every once in a while, but their main problem is their availability along with being overshaddowed by Shocks, Guards and PPSH Cons.

Penal troops were some of the best and fiercest infantry Soviet Union had (particularly in early years of war)

The picture everyone seems to have are of crying cowardly deserters who were made to fight.
This is thanks to Western cold war propaganda and post war Communist propaganda.

In reality, Penal squads were composed of criminals, political prisoners and tough people who weren't shiny example of communist idea of citizen. Still extremely partriotic, when it comes to fighting invaders.

Tho, no army wants to turn to prisoners and criminals, when it comes to who is better fighter between them and conscript peasants, you decide.

Even tho being penal squads, they received extraordinary number of medals (considering that no one wanted to acknowledge or recognize their efforts, for obvious reasons)

Just wanted to say that, from historical view, there is nothing wrong with Penals being elite Soviet inf. After all, they were spearheading attacks and did some extraordinary things during the course of the war.

As far as i know penal batallions were made of only officers who committed crimes.

Nope, certainly not just officers...

making penals slightly better would be enough imho.
another great thing would be to have more commanders with the new light AT gun, to make T1/T3 more viable

This doesn't work,when the German player sees the first Penal squad they rush for FHT and Armored Car because there is no viable AT in T1...Also,why would I go Penals when I can build T2 AT Gun and Guards or Shocks then T3 or T4

But joker.... guards are enough to keep light armour away from your penals. By the time the p4 hits, you should have an SU.

just my opinion but the game is not balanced because, if you want penals there is no tier 2. germans can get mg with grens out of tier 1. if russia could do the same it would be a bit more balanced, but as mentioned above i will not build t1 to get penals only, when i need the AT gun for certain. both factions should have equal units in the same tiers. ie: germans can get mg tier 1 russian tier 2. put the units for russia tier 1 and 2 equal to german. at current state there is no reason to build tier 1 russian unless you want to lose becasue of no mg or at gun.

you can already play german mirror games if you want that

its more like the whole game that needs reworking not just the soviet infantry . Stuff like RNG deciding games and strategy playing a very minor role in the game compared to how you micro your units , plus that ealry game has degenerated to nade dodging are unacceptable in a competitive RTS ( its like putting less strategy in favor of micro and tactics and then failing to implement them well ) . i know others think its fine and it comes down to preference but thats is RTS without the S imo .

Anyway fixing the soviet infantry is a rather simple matter like solving the t34/85s is as well and has been proposed many times in plenty of threads ,its just that relic has other priorities and thqat is reasonable since the game misses basic features ( for 2013 that is ) , those are the game lobby and the replay system ( the latter isnt missing but it is the bare minimum you can get )

Anyway suggestions :

. 1) reduce the build time of soviet buildings by 10- 20% , 2) reduce the building time of penals by 5% , 3) reduce penals cost to 300 , 4) reduce the engies mp cost by 20 and their recruitment cost by 10 , 5 decrease conscripts initial cost to 225 , 6 decrease their reinforcement cost by 2 or 3mp . Those numbers might have to be twicked in order to finetune the balance but i think the changes are correct .

Those changes will just fix the balance though so people will find sovs a bit easier to win with , the playerbase wont significantly increase and the game wont drastically improve unless certain big things happen which will take a long time

But joker.... guards are enough to keep light armour away from your penals. By the time the p4 hits, you should have an SU.

That if you have a good early game,which is impossible because a 240 MP squad can hold against even Shock Troops...Had this game with two Shocks vs. 3 LMG Grens...guess who won
If I can get Guards why should I get Penals,what's the logic?Better get two Guards
They both are decent infantry,but Guards can hold their ground better because of PTRS, Degtyarov LMG and the grenade,but still not comparable in performance with Grens which are 240 MP...
Shocks/Guards are more efficient,so again,no logic to pick Penals over them

If RNG decided games there would be some random nobody in the SNF games today, instead of the ladder leaders

But joker.... guards are enough to keep light armour away from your penals. By the time the p4 hits, you should have an SU.

nope they are not in fact if you dont have a cons squad to at nade or a mine to bait your guards will be crisps . which means at nades as well as mollies , you need 50 fuel for that plus another 40 for t1 and 90 for t4 makes 180 plus the fuel a su85 needs not to mention that guards + penals cost 720mp which is a lot , by that time your facing a large combined arms force with deminishing map control unless you go t1t2 , but in that case you ll be facing 2 p4s .

But joker.... guards are enough to keep light armour away from your penals. By the time the p4 hits, you should have an SU.

nope they are not in fact if you dont have a cons squad to at nade or a mine to bait your guards will be crisps . which means at nades as well as mollies , you need 50 fuel for that plus another 40 for t1 and 90 for t4 makes 180 plus the fuel a su85 needs not to mention that guards + penals cost 720mp which is a lot , by that time your facing a large combined arms force with deminishing map control unless you go t1t2 , but in that case you ll be facing 2 p4s .

I'm one of the few people who is of the mind that penal battalions (from a gameplay standpoint) do what they are supposed to do. With the flamethrower upgrade, they can 1v1 any German squad.

i d like to aggree but the amount of criticals that happen in this game really turns things arround , your flamethrower might do its job and kill those pgs but if it doesnt pgs will quickly mop you up . Compare that with schocks who are guaranteed to kill pg everytime and are far more survivable , dont need munitions to be useful and cost 80 mp more and you get my point .

The big advantage of penals is that you can merge with conscripts without any penalty but the ammount of squads that die in this game and the fact that they deie so fast really nulifies that .

That if you have a good early game,which is impossible because a 240 MP squad can hold against even Shock Troops...Had this game with two Shocks vs. 3 LMG Grens...guess who won
If I can get Guards why should I get Penals,what's the logic?Better get two Guards
They both are decent infantry,but Guards can hold their ground better because of PTRS, Degtyarov LMG and the grenade,but still not comparable in performance with Grens which are 240 MP...
Shocks/Guards are more efficient,so again,no logic to pick Penals over them

Because a guard squad does 18.334 dps max while a penal battalion does 34.674 dps max. Penals are good AI and have an ability that can get squad kills.


*Those numbers aren't quite right I don't think because adding the flamethrower according to the stats page would lower the max dps. Does the stats page not account for criticals in dps numbers?

Because a guard squad does 18.334 dps max while a penal battalion does 34.674 dps max. Penals are good AI and have an ability that can get squad kills.


*Those numbers aren't quite right I don't think because adding the flamethrower according to the stats page would lower the max dps. Does the stats page not account for criticals in dps numbers?

The problem still remains whatever you use,be it Guards or Penals,Grens kill two members of a squad from two bursts,exception being at long range...which don't matter,because the DPS at long range is s**t for every unit(except snipers),thus when you reach medium-short range you have 3 or 4 members of the squad left...

If RNG decided games there would be some random nobody in the SNF games today, instead of the ladder leaders

Oh so i take it you have seen all the games and you r not pulling stuff out of your ass or not ??

When there is a clear big difference in skill RNG plays a smaller role and that is the case with SNF especially untill R3 , after that in this snf it was mainly who got their hands on germans in the last game based on vps

If relic doesn't want to add some form of T1 AT for light vehicles the FHT could only use a nerf of some form (with price reduction on upgrade too probably). Possibly move guards to 0 CP? It's not like their AI capabilities are overwhelming and you won't have the munitions for upgrades that early anyways.

My T1-T4 play finally stalled out yesterday because I finally ran into players skilled enough to punish me with the FHT. You pretty much need two guard squads or you'll lose a lot of manpower. Sprinting a script squad up to AT nade it results in the loss of half your squad before they start throwing, pretty much guaranteed squad loss if the FHT is supported with infantry. And FHT can take a guard squad 1v1 so that doesn't work either... Really good FHT use is terrifying for soviet T1 right now.