Profile of Cabreza

Tbh I'm not sure what your counterpoint is.

Per your scenario, currently, 4 LMGs will rip each model to pieces individually. In the change, the 4 LMGs would spread the dmg.

You would have more time to engage/retreat with models intact, than now, even against 4 LMGs.

So even in the extreme situation of 4 LMGs, the situation is improved, compared to now.

My counterpoint is that in both scenarios the 4 LMGs effectively remove the squad from combat at long range. Fewer casualties may be sustained initially but the squad looses the same amount of health in the same amount of time if dps is consistent. This means that the problematic alpha strike of LMGs is still retained since the squad still has to retreat or risk being wiped out. Hence spreading the damage might reduce initial model loss and help in small engagements but it does nothing to address how easy and effective blobbing LMGs can be. Much like snipers, the more LMGs present the more effective LMGs become.

If dps remains the same would spreading it out between the models of a squad make any difference once critical mass was attained? If a player was to load 3-4 riflemen up with M1919s and a-move them forward the riflemen would still output the same dps at long range and still force off opposing units just as quickly.

That is why I question whether any solution that doesn't address either the long range damage output or ease of use of LMGs can truly fix the situation.

I guess because people wanna have fun and don't really care about design choices and balance.

Can you blame them?

Exactly. It is a big tank with a big gun. What's not to like?

Whether it belongs in the game is another matter entirely.

I want to like Cruzz’s AoE solution but I just don’t see how it can possibly be balanced.

In a vacuum the model works well. A unit charging the LMG takes AoE damage, doesn’t lose models, possesses more DPS when it gets into its own optimal range, and therefore stands a better chance of beating the LMG squad than it does currently. Unfortunately this model starts to break down the more LMGs you have concentrated in one area firing on one squad. Where a single LMG squad might slowly deplete the health pool of an enemy squad four LMGs would do so four times faster. Even if it took 20 seconds for a single LMG to render an enemy unit combat ineffective a group of four LMGs would do it in 5. The squad being shot might not loose as many models but it would still loose enough health that it would have to retreat or face a fast squad wipe. The alpha strike potential is still there, LMGs still dominate long range combat in groups, and it is no harder to blob LMGs and a-move them to achieve this result. About the only issue addressed by this change is 1v1 engagements.

Who might build four LMG squads? Well it isn’t uncommon for Wher and US to do this atm and the effectiveness of this strat is one of the reasons we’re discussing LMGs in the first place. The effect massed LMGs have on combat is similar to massed snipers. One sniper isn’t a serious issue but once there are enough snipers on the battlefield to take out half a squad in one volley infantry is hard countered. The same could be said of all squads but snipers and LMGs squads are the only units than can do it from long range with little personal risk. Any change to LMGs needs to address this fact to meaningfully fix the issue.

So the question I can’t answer is how do you keep AoE LMGs useful in a 1v1 engagement and not as overpowered as current LMGs when massed?

If this is real...

Well played relic. Well played.

That might work as well. I feel like when relic made the adjustments to ranges they didn't quite know what to do with LMGs and just attached an optimum range to them like they did with the other weapons.I really think that LMGs deserve to have their own unique attributes that differentiate themselves from other point and shoot weapons. A bit like a counterpart to the flamer upgrades.

That is exactly what relic did. Every weapon was given an optimal range so there would in theory be advantages and disadvantages to each and players would choose upgrades based on need. The largest issue imo is that it is just significantly easier to use LMGs at their optimal range compared to closer range weapons such as SMGs and ARs. Either LMGs need to pay a dps tax due to this ease of use or they need to have a downside that makes it harder to achieve their current optimal range dps.